Kate Henry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to Honing In, a podcast for creative thinkers where we’ll hone our skills, explore our passions, and nurture our dream projects into being. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Honing In. I am Doctor. Kate Henry. And today, I am chatting with Sadie DuPuy. Sadie is the guitarist, songwriter, and singer of rock band Speedy Ortiz, as well as the producer and multi instrumentalist behind pop project Sad thirteen. Sadie heads the record label and journal Wax Nine, and her poetry and prose have appeared in Rolling Stone, The Rumpus, Tape Op, and more.

 

Kate Henry [00:00:47]:

Mouth Guard, her first book, was published in 2018 with Gramma. And Cry Perfume, her second poetry collection, was released in 2022 with Black Ocean. She is a founding organizer of the United Musicians and Allied Workers and its local UMAW Philly. I’m so excited to chat with you, Sadie, because you’re doing so many different things.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:01:11]:

I’m so sorry. It’s funny. I I’ve had so many different versions of that bio that are in varying states of outdatedness. And there’s a publication I wrote for on and off for, like, a bajillion years that I find pretty problematic right now due to a new editor. So I couldn’t remember when you started. I was like, is this gonna be the one where I say that magazine I’m mad at? And it’s not. Check it out. It’s great.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:01:37]:

I think I put the rumpus in there instead. Much better.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:39]:

No. The rumpus is excellent. I’ve done that too with, like, my poetry publications over the I mean, because it’s been, like, I don’t know, over a decade that I’ve just been, like, not that. Okay.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:01:48]:

I can’t remember which one I gave you, like, three months ago, and now we’re doing an event, and I have to hear a company I don’t like the name of.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:57]:

We’re good. We’re good. We’re repping on the people we like. You know?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:02:00]:

Yeah. That’s right.

 

Kate Henry [00:02:01]:

So I’ll dive in and get us started with a question I like to start with. And, like, kind of the whole reason I started this podcast is asking folks who are, like, creative thinkers and artists and musicians and writers about how they conceptualize of creative projects. And I got you know, this question stuck in my head forever ago when I read Dottie Lasky’s Poetry is Not a Project, which I talk about in episode one. And I’m just, like, really intrigued by, like, does making something a project, like, open doors to make it, I don’t know, like, enhance the project, or it sets up a structure that’s really helpful? And does it also, like, dampen things or, like, actually stop us from being as creative as we could? So I’d love to hear, like, how do you feel about, like, the concept of, like, capital p project? Is it something that’s helpful for you? Is it how you conceptualize of the different output, you know, creations that you’re doing? Or is there some other framework that you found to be more helpful?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:03:03]:

Yeah. I mean, I had not read that that zine before you sent it to me earlier this week, and I absolutely loved it. I think in many ways, I do agree with it despite the fact that I am project oriented when I’m writing towards a book or writing towards a record. But I think, you know, Dottie herself would probably also agree with doing some of that. I mean, she recently published a poetry collection about The Shining, which is great, really good book. So I really do better when I do have, like, a end stage project in mind. That’s not to say that I know what it is right away when I’m writing things that might go towards it. And I think the earliest stages of drafting, once I’ve put something out, might just be me trying to figure out what’s interesting to me in that moment.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:03:53]:

So when I say project, it’s like the output’s gonna be something that I have to, you know, bind together and sell. It’s a book or it’s a record or it’s some other third thing that I don’t do yet. But, you know, I put the last book, Cry Perfume, out two three years ago. And I’ve been writing since then, but I don’t know what the next book’s gonna be. I have a bunch of poems, but I haven’t figured out what they want to do yet. I’m in that sort of state of, let’s see what I’m interested in writing. And then when I look at it later, I might figure out what some of the themes that are interesting to me right now could be and sort of steer the boat towards those. And it’s the same way for making a record.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:04:37]:

When I do the first couple songs, I might not know what I’m interested in exploring right now, but once I’ve got a few, you tend to have one that you’re like, oh, this is what this project, this time period of my life is about. So, yeah, I do I do really thrive in that kind of structure, but it’s pretty loose and malleable.

 

Kate Henry [00:04:58]:

Yeah. And this makes total sense, like, being, like, musician and a writer. Like, that you’re like, I like making music, and I like writing. So it doesn’t have to be, like, I’m going to, like, start out by being like, I need 15 songs. This is all just about the output. Right? Like, it sounds like you, like, take time to, like, play and just, like, you know, riff and, like, recreate even if it’s not going to end up in, like, the output that gets circulated.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:05:24]:

Anything I start, I tend to finish, but it might not be towards that record at that time. And I will say that I have, like, the very outdated mode of thinking about records as the project rather than just the song. You want every song to be great, but it’s, it’s serving a purpose within the context of the record it’s on. A lot of artists don’t think that way anymore. They’re singles oriented. They are sort of retrained by Spotify, for example, to put a single out every month, and that’s great too. But I don’t really like working that way, and I don’t really like listening to music that way. I like to put on a whole record.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:06:03]:

I will read poetry anthologies, but I’m generally reading someone’s book, you know, first page to last. So I think a lot about the placement of something when I’m in the middle stages of working on a project. I’ll be like, I’ve got a lot of potential track threes, but no potential track sevens. I’ve got, you know, some poems that could open sections of the book, but I need some longer, weirder ones. I I’ll look at what feels missing from what that collection needs and sort of write towards that.

 

Kate Henry [00:06:34]:

I love that strategy.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:06:35]:

The last record, I even did something crazy, which was because it was the this is the first and only one I did in the pandemic for now. Fingers crossed. I wrote down, like, the key signatures of all the songs and the tempos of all the songs. And I was like, cool. We’re gonna make sure that everything not too many in need, not too many at, like, one eighteen. And I would actually change the keys of songs to avoid sticking in one too often. It’s really funny. So there’s, like, a whole chart in the notebook that’s like and frequently my songs will change keys.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:07:07]:

So, like, the verses is something different than the chorus and something different than the final chorus. So that’s all accounted for in, like, different columns. I have problems. Okay?

 

Kate Henry [00:07:19]:

No. This is so cool to, like, look behind the scene.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:07:23]:

I’m saying this. I’m like, this is, like, serial killer stuff. But it’s fine.

 

Kate Henry [00:07:27]:

No. It’s so cool. It’s, like, so satisfying for me to, like, talk to people who are, like, you know, like, really good at what they do, and then they’ve been doing it for, like, so long. So it’s like I’m like, I don’t know what these words are that you’re using, but it’s so cool that, like, that’s the, like, magic that’s happening behind, and then I just get to listen to your record and be like, oh.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:07:47]:

It’s not that different from sequencing a poetry collection. To shout out Dottie once more, she helped me to not sequence my last book, but to get to help me strategize sequencing it. And her advice, which I took, was to print out every page which I already done, like, this box in this corner of this room that is just, like, filled with drafts of poems. Why do I have them? What is the point? Nobody wants these. She had me print them all out for the seventh time and write down every theme I could think of for that poem, pick out the ones that appeared most often, section the book by those themes, whether or not I named them, and kind of sequence each section, like, similar to how I think of sequencing an album. So I think that the those strategies apply to any creative collection of individual works.

 

Kate Henry [00:08:40]:

I remember when I was in the MFA, like, having I think I have photos of this somewhere. Like, just, like, taping all the poems to the wall and, like, moving them around and then, like, just, like, walking around. You know? Like, yeah. That was really cool.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:08:54]:

I’m a floor guy, but I like the wall too.

 

Kate Henry [00:08:57]:

Yeah. Ugh. This is cool.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:08:59]:

Floor guy, and then it’s like no one can be in the living room. So

 

Kate Henry [00:09:02]:

Oh, yeah. Do you have a car is it, like, carpet or hardwood floor?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:09:06]:

It would be hardwood. So if anything goes, you know, the wrong breeze, then we’re in trouble.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:10]:

No one sneeze. Yeah. This is cool. So we’re, like, thinking about the, like, entry point and, like, how that affects, like, the endpoint. And when I was prepping for an interview and just, like, really, like, doing a deep dive into your stuff, I had this thought of, like, oh my gosh. I bet Sadie is just wicked busy all the time, and there’s so many behind the scenes things that you’re doing that, like, I, as the person who, you know, reads your work or listens to your music, doesn’t know. And, like, when and I thought too about, like, even with, like, sad 13 where folks might be like, oh, is this just Sadie’s solo thing? Like, that you’re collaborating with folks. Like, there are other, like, people involved in the process you’re doing.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:49]:

And I’m curious about, like, what’s your experience collaborating with folks on your different creative projects? And, like, when do you say yes to things? I imagine you’re super busy. You can’t say yes to everything. Like, when do you ask folks to join you? And, like, one of the reasons I wanted to ask this question is because I was listening to Ghost to Church by Jamie Loftus, and I was like when the theme music came on, I was like, oh, I know this. I know this person. And then I did a Google, you know, and it was you. So I was like, oh, cool. Like, what a interesting constellation that that was connected. You know? So I’m I know that there are, like, other folks you’ve collaborated with and things, but I think there’s also probably, like, not just like, oh, you made a song together.

 

Kate Henry [00:10:32]:

Right? Like, you’re both singing on a song, but there’s so much behind the scenes stuff. So I’m just curious. Could you, like, talk to me a bit about, like, how collaboration working with other folks doing projects like that? How does that come about? How do you approach it?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:10:44]:

Yeah. I mean, that Ghost Church song is maybe, like, the best example of me being a collaborator in my entire life because I’m kind of bad at collaboration, and my bandmates will attest to this too. When it’s something I perceive of as my own thing, I’m putting that in big scare quotes. You know, if I wrote the song, I’m kind of a control freak about what happens with it because I’m not just conceiving of songs when I write them as, like, the chord changes in the lyrics. I have the production ideas as the song comes to me for better or worse. I know, like, what I want the bass to be doing. I know what I want the drums to be doing. And it doesn’t always leave the most room for, like, a capital c collaboration.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:11:27]:

My bandmates will come in, and they’ll know what kind of vibe exists in the song already because I’ve done a very overly pre produced demo. And they’ll certainly add their own skills and taste to those things, but it’s sort of within the confines of something I already started. We’re not, like, getting in the practice space to write a song together. And I’ve actually never done, like, a co write where I sat in the room with someone. It’s usually someone sends me a track and I do the top line or something else like that. The Ghost Church song, I’m gonna say, is the best example of me collaborating because Jamie Loftus, who hosts that podcast, and I have done a few different, like, theme songs together. I did her My Year in Mensa, podcast theme, and then I more recently did sixteenth minute fame, which is, like, my favorite podcast of all time right now. Not a NFO recommend.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:12:15]:

I know I sing the song, but it’s really, really insanely good.

 

Kate Henry [00:12:18]:

I’ve thought about it. Like, I it just the cover of that just looks so cool. Like, I’m like, this You heard it. Something no. I haven’t listened to it, but just, like, when I’m looking at podcasts and I see the cover of it, I’m like, this image just like, the cover image of the podcast looks so cool.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:12:32]:

It’s incredible, and I really wanna specifically shout out her Tayes on Day series of episodes because those are, like, the three best podcast episodes I’ve ever heard maybe. He’s incredible and just fascinating. Anyway, the Ghost Church song, Jamie had sent over the themes and the scripts for the first couple episodes, but it was a really tight turnaround. And it happened to be when we were in the studio working on our most recent album. And it was like, the way that we record things vocals are always at the very end. I think that’s how most people do things. But we were in, like, vocals zone, and all the instrumental stuff was done. And so vocal zone is, like, just me for, like, days at a time.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:13:15]:

And we were running out of days to get this song done. So my bandmates went and made the music themselves without me, and I just did the top line based on the script and the things I knew Jamie wanted it to reference. So that’s the first Speedy song I didn’t do the instrumentals for.

 

Kate Henry [00:13:33]:

Oh, this is so cool. I’m definitely gonna link to it. I mean, like, people should actually listen to these awesome podcasts as well, but I’m gonna I’ll link to it, the show notes, so few people can listen and then listen to the pod.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:13:43]:

And so then for my the sad 13 stuff, for the speedy stuff, with the exception of the couple times I’ve had, like, a rapper come to a verse, like Samus did one on the first album. There’s a song with Lizzo, which is funny. I tend to kinda write everything, and I’ll say, can you play exactly this? But I do love showing up on other people’s things. And especially, like, if they’ve told me what to do, I really enjoy that because that’s the way I work. So if someone says I want this exact harmony, that’s like, I thrive in that environment. Or I want, you know, this kind of mood of synth here. I love doing stuff like that. So I love playing on other people’s things.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:14:22]:

I like collaborating in that way. I’m just not a good collaborative composer

 

Kate Henry [00:14:27]:

yet. Yeah. I hear you. I mean, I too like I mean, I don’t know if you relate to this, but I like being in charge of, like, my stuff. But I’m also really good if someone’s, like, do this precise thing. I’m like, I you got it. I’m like, I just like to do a good job at everything I do. So, like, I’m gonna do a good job if I’m doing it or if you ask me to do it.

 

Kate Henry [00:14:46]:

Well, I

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:14:46]:

think it’s like I have a really specific vision for what I want when I’m working on things. And a lot of people are more open to chance and opportunity, and that produces really amazing, beautiful things too. I just think that because my brain works that way, I’m really attracted to working on things where somebody else is like, do exactly this in service of the vision of the thing or whatever.

 

Kate Henry [00:15:07]:

So thinking of, like, specifically around, like, collaboration and thinking about music, And I wanna talk a bit about poetry and music and songwriting. And we mentioned this before, but we both did our MFAs at UMass. I think I graduated the year before you did. I was twenty thirteen. Were you 14?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:15:24]:

Last semester I was there was December 2013.

 

Kate Henry [00:15:27]:

Oh, excellent. Okay. So we were there at the same time. And I remember, like, when I was doing the MFA, especially at UMass Amherst, like, not everyone was funded, but we were both funded and we were doing, like, teaching, which is cool.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:15:38]:

Yeah. I’ll say I could not have gone if I would not No.

 

Kate Henry [00:15:40]:

Same. Totally.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:15:41]:

Was not even considering it.

 

Kate Henry [00:15:43]:

I totally I applied to I think that I applied to, like, 10 programs, got into a few, got wait listed at a few, but UMass was the only one that offered funding. And I was like, I guess I’m moving to Massachusetts. Okay. You know? So we did the MFA. And then since then, you’ve published your two books that we talked about. And I’ve read, like, some, like, interviews, and I heard you talk a bit about, like, poetry and songwriting and, like, you know, like, you were doing a lot of like, creating a lot of music when you were in the MFA program too. So I’m curious, like, do you feel like songwriting and, like, making music, did they influence your poetry or not? That’s a question coming from a non musician. And I meant, like, a lot of folks who are listening might also be non musicians.

 

Kate Henry [00:16:26]:

So, like, thinking about, like, oh, like, writing songs and writing poems, like, they’re probably not the same thing. You know? But I’m curious how they relate. And then also, like, with your work with wax nine, like, it’s a record label, but it also like, it’s a journal. There’s also, like, writing through there. So I’m curious just about, like, how what is how do these things, like, maybe influence one another or they, like, exist side by side or maybe it’s not that clear cut.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:16:52]:

Yeah. I mean, I’m I can use a reference that you will get compared more so than other people who’ve asked this question. But I feel like when we were doing the MFA, all the poets were getting really into collage. Do you remember this? Yeah. Everybody was, like, deeply into their collaging. And I feel like poetry and songwriting inform one another similarly to how poetry and collaging might inform one another. Being an active poet makes you a really good, ideally, makes you a good editor of your own work, able to see what’s not working and not feel precious when it’s not. It makes you able to put interesting images next to one another.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:17:31]:

It gives you a sense of pacing and spacing and leaving things out. So I think it it’s sort of the same way that any creative practice benefits another one. You gain more insight into what you like and what kinds of methods for creation you like and what kinds of images or sounds or colors or visuals you’re drawn to. So, yeah, I think that for me, that’s kind of like where there is a connection. It would be the same as if I were a poet slash painter, but that’s a little more obtuse than it needs to be. Like, there are other similarities. Of course, like, poetry contains rhythm, and there’s melodiousness and there I’m a songwriter who doesn’t write instrumental music, so I’m having to put phrases together. But they don’t feel like identical practice.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:18:26]:

It’s not like I write a poem to a song or something like that. The drafting processes feel very different, but I think our the many years of practice in both art forms influence how I approach each of them.

 

Kate Henry [00:18:40]:

The drafting process, it makes sense that the entrance there is similar. Do you feel like, like, the editing process is similar, or is it, like, different with, like, editing the lyrics to a song? Like, does it feel similar or different?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:18:52]:

It feels pretty different because I’ll walk you through how I would write both kinds of things, a poem and a song. A song frequently, I just, like, have the melodic idea, and I’ll sit down for, like, ten minutes and just get some chord changes and melodies and maybe some words that are placeholder or not. It’s very, very quick, that initial drafting. And then I’ll go into the computer, and I’ll be like, drums first. I build the drums out for the track. I do the bass and some keyboards. I kinda wait till the end to do guitar so then I’m not relying on, like, basically, you know, chords to fill it out. I want it to be leads.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:19:30]:

And then I’ll do the vocals at the very end. And by that time, I sort of know what the track sounds like. I know where I will need to leave more space, but I know the length of it. I know the melodies I need to be singing and that, at least to my mind and my practice, only leaves so many options for what words can go there. So it sort of feels like fringe poetry if I’m gonna use poetry as an analogy. I’m, like, moving things around in different vowel sounds and different consonants that I think will carry well in that melody. At the end of the day, once I’ve done that, I will format all the lyrics like prose just so I can see what is working. I always wanted to work.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:20:08]:

I want the lyrics to work on a sentence level, which is ridiculous, and I don’t know anybody else who does this exact stupid way of obsessively working on things. But I’ll format them all like prose. If anything is reading, like, you know, a prose poem that I wouldn’t be excited to read, I’ll change it, but still within those parameters of, like, what will work in the song. So that’s sort of the process for you know? And then if I make any changes, it’s, like, in the studio with everybody there. I’m like, what do you think it should be? Like, b or a? You know? I’m switching, like, articles, things that don’t matter to anyone who has ever listened to a song other than the person who is singing it. Drafting a poem, I will say maybe I have, like, a great phrase in my head that I wanna start with, but I just kinda go from there. And I write for however much time I have. So it could be an hour.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:20:57]:

It could be a couple hours. It could be ten minutes. And then I’ll put it away and return to it later and just carve things away. So it feels a lot more to continue to use a visual art metaphor, like working on sculpture. Like, I found this great piece of clay. Like, let me take some stuff away from it. Let me keep taking things away. So frequently, I’ll have a first draft of a poem that’s, like, five pages, and it comes down to, like, 10 lines.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:21:20]:

With a song, as much as you may want to get rid of a lot more of the lines, you already kinda know how long it needs to be and where singing should be. Sometimes, like, I will just get rid of a whole last verse and be like, this is enough of me. Let’s let the instruments do the storytelling. But you don’t have the freedom to just, like, delete, you know, 80% of your of your thoughts.

 

Kate Henry [00:21:42]:

Yeah. I’m so happy I asked you this question. That was just so cool to hear you explain your approach to both of these things.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:21:50]:

Yeah. You know, when you’ve written five pages, you’re like, I’m sick of myself here. I’m gonna delete so much of this. So this song you’re like, oh, god. I wish I didn’t write all this stuff. It’s too late now. Arrangement’s done.

 

Kate Henry [00:22:02]:

When I was I take a similar I mean, I haven’t written a poem in a little while. I just like write like love poems for my spouse sometimes.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:22:08]:

I love that. That’s quite cooler than anything I do.

 

Kate Henry [00:22:12]:

Yeah. But like when I was in the MFA, like I also loved to, like, write a ton. Like, I remember, like, this one poem that I, like, really liked that ended up in an anthology was, like I also wrote, like, a ton, and then I, like, flipped the lines. Like, I flipped it upside down so it read backwards, and then I, like, honed it down. So it like, I was much more of a, like, shave everything away thing.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:22:34]:

Yeah. I mean, I do I do stuff like that a lot too. I’ll use, like was it, like, random.org? You can randomize the lines and see if you like a combination better there. I’ll take my favorite line of the poem and just make that the title, and it’s no longer in the poem. A lot of a lot of reordering, and I guess it’s also like fringe poetry. Maybe everything we’re doing is

 

Kate Henry [00:22:58]:

I hear you.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:22:59]:

Descendants of fridge poetry.

 

Kate Henry [00:23:01]:

I remember when I was in the MFA, I was, like, really into writing couplets, like, just, like, short couplets. And then there was a professor that was like, you’re not allowed to write couplets anymore. You just have to write prose poems.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:23:11]:

And I was like, what? No. Did you read, Maggie Milner’s couplets?

 

Kate Henry [00:23:16]:

No. I didn’t. But I remember

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:23:17]:

It’s really great.

 

Kate Henry [00:23:18]:

I it’s so cool to hear how you approach songwriting and that you have, like, a process that, you know, like, this is a process that feels like you need to you, and it obviously works. Again, I don’t know as a person who listens to and enjoys your songs and your the music, like, that it goes into this prose format to be you know, go through this final fine tooth combing or whatever.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:23:40]:

Yeah. And when we so I do the visual art for our stuff as well. And so when we include the lyrics, I always format them that way, and it will drive me crazy to see whoever put them onto, like, genius.com, and then it gets aggregated. So there’s a million other sites. They totally get rid of that formatting. The grammar is crazy. I’m like, I meticulously edited this the way I want it presented, but, yeah, I can’t get around the conventions of how people like to format lyrics, I guess.

 

Kate Henry [00:24:08]:

Do you feel like because I listen to your stuff online. But, like, do you like with, like, printing a vinyl or, like, a record or a CD or, I don’t know, audio tape? Like, are the lyrics there? Like, is that that a part of, like, sharing your music as well?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:24:23]:

Yeah. It’s all in the packaging. I could even point to you, like, if I turn my camera over here, there’s a Farfusa back there that you see has the least, like, huge stacks of paper on it which should go somewhere like a flat file, but have not for three years because it’s ADHD. But, yeah, I make all the artwork really big and then scale it down so the lyrics were all on little postcards for this record and were included as a poster, I think. But we’ve done other things like a chapbook or an insert or

 

Kate Henry [00:24:50]:

Ugh. I love it. This is excellent. I love that we’re, like, weaving in all of these different, you know, aspects of your, like, creative work and creative output. And I wanna talk a bit about, like, touring and, you know, performing. And I’ve been so thrilled to, like, keep up with your work and read interviews and read news over the years, you know, since we’ve been in the MFA. And something that I always felt, like, super excited about was how you’re really committed to making your concerts, like, a safer space for folks. And, like, I see this both, like, in the work that you’ve done before with having the hotline number that folks could call who were in attendance at the show if they were being harassed, if there was something shitty going on.

 

Kate Henry [00:25:32]:

And, also, like, you’re just, like, very vocal, which I am so appreciative of this, talking about harm reduction and working with harm reduction coalition and talking about, like, carrying Narcan with you on tours. And I think that that’s also just really admirable. So, I’m curious, like, are there other musicians who are also, like, you know, this is something important to them to make concerts and, like, shows safer spaces? And I also wanna say too, like, this is not on the artist or the musician. This is also on the venues and the festivals and, festivals and, like, those spaces themselves. Yeah. So, I’d love to hear a bit more about how you’ve done that work and also, like, just to hear your insight and your take on that.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:26:10]:

Yeah. I mean, I I do think a lot of these principles have been adopted a lot more widely, particularly Narcan Distro at music venues, not ones owned by Live Nation. I’ll put a caveat on there. They, I believe that Live Nation prohibits their employees from even administering Narcan in the event of an overdose. Concert goer can administer it, but there have been stories of people having their Narcan removed their bags when they’re going into Live Nation venues, which is crazy. I think there’s a big Pitchfork article about this a couple of years ago that I wanna say Mark Hogan wrote. But I do know a lot of other artists who carry Narcan on the road or will distill it at their tables. There’s a really great harm reduction group based in Columbus called Be The Place that have made it their mission to be at every festival, passing out Narcan and harm reduction info.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:27:04]:

They get a lot of really great artists to do, like, a photo op with the, you know, nasal naloxone Narcan to say, like, we carry this. Everyone should do it. And I just think that makes a world of difference for people who maybe think that overdose reversal is stigmatized or that, you know, the reality that people use drugs should be unspoken or, you know, further stigmatized. So, when we started to work with the harm reduction groups and, like, talk about on stage what we were up to at the merge table, it was kind of amazing the amount of people who would come up after and say, I’m in recovery. I lost a friend to overdose or just, like, I work in harm reduction. And to just be able to have, like, normal conversations, I think was refreshing to everyone involved. Drugs are part of nightlife. Drugs are part of a lot of people’s lives, but nightlife gets more of a focus.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:28:07]:

And so, the things that keep people safe need to be part of nightlife too. And that includes Narcan, that includes testing strips. That includes all of these harm reduction resources that have gone through varying states of legality and funding at the state and federal level over the last many years. But, yeah, it’s been amazing to see so many different artists espousing this cause and shouting out harm reduction groups and working with local ones, and that makes me very happy. As far as the safer spaces, the hotline thing, it was not, like, the most effective use of our time maybe. It derived from you know, we all come from, like, DIY and or local arts, you know, the flywheel. And you’d see spaces with great safer spaces policies for, like, you know, their 50-cap room and just wishing that that could exist when you’re playing a festival and there’s, you know, hundred thousand people there, and it’s chaos. And the only people there to help out are security who frequently escalate issues.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:29:13]:

So we wanted de escalation and bystander intervention to be something that more people could be aware of at our shows, especially as we started to play bigger festivals and bigger venues. So we had a friend we our friend, JJ Skolnick, who’s another tremendous writer, former Bandcamp editor, and phenomenal writer, and also trained in in giving de-escalation trainings, would come and do a training at our show and helped us to put a print out a one sheet that we would give out at the merch table. And I think we still have those. The hotline was for people to call if they were experiencing harassment because I experienced harassment in the crowd at a festival we were playing, and nobody there were many people around me and nobody helped until I kind of fended the guy off. And I was like, this would have been great if anyone had my back. And I’m grateful that I now know I can go backstage to decompress from this, like, horrifying incident. Nobody in the else in the audience who will surely go through this today has the same luxury. So that was sort of what we created it for.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:30:15]:

I think, like, maybe three legitimate uses of it ever. One was, like, I am scared to walk to my car. Can someone walk with me? And we got someone from the venue to do that. One was I’m having a panic attack. Can I come backstage? You know, stuff like that. It got spammed a lot with, like, racist memes and things like that. This This was, like, the time that Brooklyn Vegan still had a comment section that was pretty horrific. I love Brooklyn Vegan, but I’m really happy they got rid of their comment section.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:30:44]:

And four Chan, you know, it was like a different I mean, I guess it’s probably still like this, but I think the idea of something like this in, like, more mainstream indie rock was foreign to a lot of the people who were part of these forums and comment sections. I feel like it’s gotten a little it’s gotten way better now. But I do know that based on us doing it, Modern Baseball did it on their tour shortly after, and it went well for them. And Dispatch, do you know do you remember that band? So they have someone working with them whose name is Kim Wernick, and I think they have a nonprofit called, like, Calling All Crows that’s dedicated to concert safety like this, and they I consulted for them to incorporate that. And I think from them, like, other people have done it. I think, yes, me did it for a little bit. So there is, like, a use for it, but what would be so much better, as you alluded to, is for every venue to adopt something like this because, you know, let’s say Speedy Ortiz plays Madison, Wisconsin, like, once every two years, you’re gonna just have a number in your phone from two years ago for when you’re experiencing harassment. Maybe it’s that you go to the empty bottle in Chicago all the time and you love it.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:31:58]:

That’s your local venue. And this one time you have a terrible experience, what’s the number I can call? Or who do I know is safe to talk to at the bar to help deescalate this? So that that and certainly, I have seen a lot of venues incorporate more safer spaces, policies, and ideology and de-escalation training for all staff and security because frequently it’s security who actually escalates the conflicts. Because it’s outside contracted security. They don’t get the same kind of training and yeah.

 

Kate Henry [00:32:29]:

Yeah. I was like, a couple of months ago, I went and saw Lucy Dacus, and there was, like I’m trying to remember. Like, I remember in the bathrooms, there was, like, signage around, like, okay. If, like that, I think, was something just, like, if you think someone’s been roofied, like, here’s how you can get support. But I remember, like, at the show, I no longer stand in general admission because of my back. I will just sit up in the back, but I’ve like, something happened and people, like I don’t know what happened. Somewhat like, maybe someone passed out, but someone, like, yelled and, like, Lucy was like, no. No.

 

Kate Henry [00:32:58]:

Hold on. Let’s stop. And, like, she was like, let’s get like, waited until someone came to help the person. And I was like, well, a, I would hope that any musician would do that and not just be a dick and keep playing. But I was like, this is good that she’s like, no. Everyone, we’re gonna pause the music and we’re all gonna make sure that something happens.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:33:15]:

Yeah. And luckily, I do think that’s kind of the standard practice at this point. Certainly, we’ve had to do it when we see weird things in the crowd. And

 

Kate Henry [00:33:23]:

Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you are doing this good work, and I hope that other musicians and folks and

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:33:28]:

I think people are I think people really care about their fans having a good show because we’re all just part of one music community. So I do think that artists have done a lot to further these ideas and spread them, and it’s great to see venues. You know, people who work at venues are frequently all the artists too. So it does feel like there’s a been a bit a tide that has turned, at least in the independent venues, not so much the Live Nation ones.

 

Kate Henry [00:33:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So I want to hear about another aspect of the work and the final part of the bio that I read today, which is your work with United Musicians and Allied Workers. And when I was, you know, familiarizing and, like, reading through stuff, some of the campaigns there, I was like, oh, like, as a non musician, that makes sense to me. Like, folks should have increased royalty and, like, fair payment from, like, on places like Spotify. But some of the campaigns, I was like, oh, I never would have known this if I didn’t look at this. Us.

 

Kate Henry [00:34:29]:

Like, the like, hashtag my merch. Like, I just assume that, like, all of the sales for merch at a show go to the artist, and that is not the case, like, with venues or festivals, folks taking a cut of that. So I’d love to, like, hear a bit more about U of A W. Like, what’s the work that’s done, like, that’s supporting artists? And, like, what can, like, non musicians folks like me do? Like, well, go to the website and read about these campaigns and learn what’s going actually going on. But, like, are there other things that we could do, you know, to support folks in the music industry?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:35:01]:

Yeah. I mean, it’s just a really tricky time for everyone working in music, and that that is not just the musicians. That’s the independent venues and workers there. That’s the people that work for indie labels. It’s just not much money to go around or there is a lot of money and it’s all gone to Spotify. So United Musicians and Allied Workers was a pandemic project. There’s that project again. A number of us had been involved in a semi boycott of Amazon a few years before that called No Music for Ice, which was protesting Amazon’s, Palantir, CBP, and other forms of surveillance and policing that were done off Amazon subsidiaries and a million other labor reasons.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:35:48]:

But pandemic lockdown started, and a couple of folks who’ve been involved in that were like, hey. Should we meet on Zoom and figure out how to get unemployment? And so the first project was a call drive, having folks call their representatives, and it was like a hotline. Actually, this is one time I voiced a hotline that was kind of a I got to voice all the press 7 if you’d like to be forwarded to

 

Kate Henry [00:36:12]:

Let’s add it to your bio.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:36:14]:

Terrific. And from that, it was just like there was a lot of enthusiasm for how other things could change within our work. Musicians frequently just tore themselves into the ground. Prior to the pandemic, I was touring, like, ten months a year. Part of why I left finished the MFA early is because I just was like, I need to I’m making more money on tour. I gotta I gotta go. So it was like everyone had all these ideas of how things could be different, but no energy to do so, fear of retribution from our varied employers, no centralized workplace. I’m but for the listeners, I’m counting these out of my figures for some reason.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:36:54]:

That was the third point. No centralized workplace and no place to compare notes. I think the fear of retribution that was point two just now caused people to fear transparency and fear saying, hey. We did this exact same show as this other band, and they got $200, and we got $1,200. Or, you know, we’re on a tour and we’re making 2,500 a night and the direct support is making $1.50, which is the same as they would have made in the nineties. It was a lot of, like, comparing notes about these kinds of inequities or differences in contracts, which are not standardized. A lot of musicians have absolutely no legal background and just, are so excited that the label’s interested in them that they will sign a contract without understanding the ramifications for a decade from then. So it was like a lot of conversations multiple times per week on Zoom because we nobody had anything else to do other than live streams, which has had their own issues.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:37:52]:

So I was really interested in the I was working in mostly the venues subcommittee because of my interest and experience in safer spaces and getting naloxone into venues and then doing on-site testing. And that also applied to, like, learning about COVID and how venues were reopening. So a few of us took a class to become I absolutely hate this title and COVID compliance officers makes us sound like a cop, but it was basically like, here’s how long you need to wash different kinds of things and surfaces to allow for safe reopening of venues. So that was sort of my area of interest, but what has really taken off from UMA the last few years is the Living Wage for Musicians Act, which stems from the really grossly low royalties that musicians receive from streaming. And Spotify is, like, continuing to race to the bottom to pay us even less. They’ve rolled out a program that basically amounts to payola because they will quote unquote prioritize playlisting for artists to accept a 30% royalty cut. It’s already a third of a penny per stream, and a lot of people have opted into this. So what? Everyone’s gonna opt in to prioritize playlisting.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:39:12]:

How could you prioritize all of these folks? And also now everybody has accepted a royalty rate that is a third of a third of a penny.

 

Kate Henry [00:39:21]:

Sounds like an MLM. Like, that sucks.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:39:23]:

I know. I know. So yeah. You know, other streaming services pay slightly more, but the problems exist across the board. And that’s a lot of what Yuma has worked to raise awareness of because a lot of people have absolutely no idea there’s anything wrong with any of these platforms. They think they are doing their best to support their favorite artists by streaming the album overnight or whatever. You see, like, fan groups of pop stars will be like, stream Katy Perry all night for clear skin. I mean, she actually probably does get a better royalty because the major labels negotiated secret royalty deals that nobody knows what the percent is.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:40:02]:

But, yeah, it’s not great for the working class musician. So the better ways to support them are to come to concerts, to buy merch from them directly. It does stink when the venue takes a cut. We usually just have to charge slightly more that day, and it evens out for us. But it’s frustrating to have to pass that on to the consumer.

 

Kate Henry [00:40:23]:

Yeah. Is Bandcamp a good alternative?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:40:25]:

Bandcamp does a day once a month. Most months, that’s like Bandcamp Friday where they’ll waive their fee. They do pay slightly better percents than their competitors. And I do think it was for a lot of musicians, like, the great hope in the digital music space, but then they union busted their whole union. So I think a lot of us have been a little disappointed. And after, like, multiple sales of the company, I think a lot of us have been a little jaded on Bandcamp even though it probably still is one of the better options. But, yeah, we’re not making money from streaming. We’re making a little bit of money from digital sales.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:41:04]:

Coming to a show and buying things is usually the best way to do it, assuming the venue is not taking a crazy merge cut.

 

Kate Henry [00:41:11]:

I’m learning a lot from talking to you. And now everyone who’s listening to be like a more responsible fan and listener of music and support artists as folks can, you know?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:41:21]:

And it’s funny. Like, I meet people I’ve been dealing with a bunch of medical stuff this year. And so because I’m a guitarist, it’s I broke my I shattered my left elbow, which has been a it’s been a nightmare for a year. I’m still recovering from that. Every medical professional I meet is like, you play guitar for work. Can I find you on Spotify? I’m like, yes, but I have to hold myself back from the from the spiel.

 

Kate Henry [00:41:46]:

Man, that’s tough with doctors too. Like, I feel like I’m going through some, like, who knows what’s going on? It was tendinitis. Now it’s like a metacarpal boss, but maybe it’s actually a pinched nerve. It you know?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:41:56]:

Yeah. I just did my I just did a nerve full nerve study, a few days ago.

 

Kate Henry [00:42:00]:

Well, I might need to do one

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:42:01]:

in a couple of weeks. It’s interesting. It’s painful, but it was interesting.

 

Kate Henry [00:42:05]:

I’ll take it if it gives me some deeds. But, like, I feel like also like, this is not a podcast about doctors, but I also feel you too. They’d be like, yeah, I’m on Spotify. I’m forever at help.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:42:13]:

Keep him.

 

Kate Henry [00:42:15]:

Yes. I’m a doctor of rhetoric. Right? But I feel you. You’d be like,

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:42:20]:

yeah, sure. I’m on Spotify.

 

Kate Henry [00:42:22]:

Okay. So we’ll start to come to a close for today. And I like to end by asking folks what they’re honing in on, and you can sort of interpret that as you like.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:42:33]:

Well, I’m running my first half marathon since my accident in a few weeks. Yeah. It’s on June 7, I think. So right before I spoke to you, I ran 12 miles, which felt crazy to do right waking up and then coming to do this. So I think I’m honing in on my first return to a half marathon.

 

Kate Henry [00:42:54]:

That’s amazing. I mean, well, your skin is glowing right now. So you’ve got the post run skin glow.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:42:59]:

Oil and salt.

 

Kate Henry [00:43:01]:

I love it. I am someone who, like, wants to be a runner. And, like, I kind of only run when I’m, like, really angry and I need to work it out. Like, that’s what I it’s so good for that. But have you been a runner? Like, is this something that you’ve like, oh, I’ve been doing this for a while or is this like, you know, tell me a bit about your running practice.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:43:19]:

Yeah. I started in high school. I joined track in my junior year on a on a dare, basically. A frenemy bet me that I wouldn’t last a season on the track team, and so I had to prove him wrong. And I enjoyed it, and I joined cross country, and then I did the final track season as, like, as one of the captains. So I’ve run on and off since then. My first half marathon would have been, like, twenty eighteen, I think. But, yeah, I’ve been I, you know, enjoy running.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:43:54]:

I kinda go on and off sometimes, but I was sort of building back up to be doing more. I did a few half marathons right before I broke my elbow, and then I wasn’t able to run for many months. So because I was still recovering from the surgery. So it’s been, like, a slower than ideal, slightly frustrating return to it. But now I’m now I’m all in, and I’m excited for this half to be done because it’s gonna be too hot soon to be doing the really long run. So I’m kind of I’m, like, excited for the race, and then I’m also excited for it to be summer. And I’m gonna run a lot less because you just

 

Kate Henry [00:44:35]:

gotta. Good for you. Taking care of yourself.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:44:38]:

But, yeah, running if you’re an angry person, which I am, great activity.

 

Kate Henry [00:44:42]:

It’s really good. Like, I, like, remember, like, coming home from the vet once and, like, so and being angry, like, my cat was sick. He was fine. He’s, like, fine now. But, like, just being, like, gotta go. I gotta get out. You know? And it does it’s such a yeah. It’s a go to for me when I need to just, like, work it all out of my body.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:44:59]:

And I’ll recommend a book called Run the Song. It’s Ben Ratliff, who is a former critic, NYU teacher, incredible music writer, and he runs, and he listens to music while he runs. And this is a book sort of about what he hears when he’s running and how running has opened up new ways of hearing. And it’s really about, like, the opposite of the kind of running I do, which is very much, here’s my training plan. I have to do this and this and this this exact day, and I’m wearing a watch, and I’m keeping track of my heart rate and the distance and everything, and it’s going on to Strava. That’s not what this guy is about. He’s about just connecting with running, and he doesn’t really care how long he goes or how far he goes or how hard, you know, he’s working. It’s about connecting with the world around him and what he’s listening to.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:45:48]:

And I think it’s a great I feel like there’s, like, three running books I like now, and that’s the newest entry. So Ben Ratliff, run the song I recommend to runners and non runners alike.

 

Kate Henry [00:46:00]:

That’s excellent. I’m excited to check it out. Well, Sadie, this has been such a treat. I learned so much today from you. I feel like I got, like, a master class in songwriting. But it is just cool. I trust your opinion on the all the questions and stuff that I’ve asked, so it’s

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:46:17]:

been really cool to hear. Well, this is awesome. I was stoked to have a an excuse to hang out with you on Riverside FM.

 

Kate Henry [00:46:25]:

So, I mean, folks could find you just by Google search, but, like, how could folks follow you and see what you’re up to? Do you have things going on this summer?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:46:33]:

Oh, yeah. We have some random festivals. Spirithees.com/tour, I think, says the tour dates. I am on Instagram at sad thirteen, s a d one three. Formerly very on Twitter, not so much these days, and I will continue to call it Twitter until I die. But I do use blue sky now. I’m at sad13.horse because that is my website also.

 

Kate Henry [00:46:56]:

Ah, your website’s excellent. Don’t you have the little the little ghosty?

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:46:59]:

The little cursor. Yeah. I got it. This is in the pandemic, I was just like, I’m gonna learn every technology. So instead of a control freak, so I make our websites. I now make music videos. I learned all this stupid stuff because I love to give myself more than I should.

 

Kate Henry [00:47:15]:

It looks good though. The sad 13 is definitely a vibe. Thank you, Sadie. This has been such a treat.

 

Sadie Dupuis [00:47:21]:

Yeah. This is great.

 

Kate Henry [00:47:25]:

Thanks so much for joining me. You can learn more about honing in and my work as a productivity coach on my website, katehenry.com. Take good care.