Kate Henry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to Honing in a podcast for creative thinkers where we’ll hone our skills, explore our passions, and nurture our dream projects into being. Hi everyone, welcome back to honing in. I’m Dr. Kate Henry and today I am thrilled to be interviewing Jen Carrington, who is someone whose work I’ve been following for almost a decade now and whose writing and podcasting has been really instrumental to my own approach to my business. Jen Carrington is a gentle business coach and specializes in supporting small business owners to build and run simple and spacious businesses where they can honor their humanness whilst also making a steady and thriving income. Jen has spent the past decade working with hundreds of clients as they bridge the gap toward their version of more flexibility, ease and intentional growth in their business, and has designed her business to only ask very part time hours from her each week whilst also being the breadwinner for her family so she can prioritize the needs of her health. As a human who lives in a chronically ill body, Jen lives in Manchester, UK with her husband, son, two cats and their dog and is always happiest when curled up with a good book, which is something I’m going to chat with Jen about later. But welcome.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:28]:

Jen, I’m so grateful that you’re a guest on Honing in today.

 

Jen Carrington [00:01:32]:

Thank you for having me here. Also, when you say you’ve been like reading my work for a decade, that makes me feel both like old and honored. I’m like, that’s crazy. When you sent me a post that you were gonna talk about in this interview from 2019, even that was like I was writing things in 2019, that feels like a lifetime ago. So I’m honored to be here.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:51]:

I mean, props to you that it’s still really great. The post I’m gonna talk about today from 2019, I’m in like a small business owners’ group and I just recommended it to everybody. I was like, everyone needs to like. I’ve been recommending this post to people for years, so I want to open us up today with a question I’m just genuinely curious about. This is why I started the podcast. I’d love to know how you feel about and if you use the concept of a project, like a capital P project when you approach your work or is there a different framework or word or concept that you find is helpful when you’re approaching your work or your creative projects.

 

Jen Carrington [00:02:32]:

When you asked me and you told me then I had this question, I was like, I never thought about it, but I was like, do I use the Word project. I can’t think of a word I would use differently to project. Like when I like kind of when you have a business, you have the work that you always do, which is just like client delivery and program delivery and ongoing marketing. And then we have projects. Whether that’s a law. If it’s a launch, which is a project, I call it a launch. Or if it’s like a new resource that I’m bringing it to life, I’ll call it a resource, not a project. So my brain likes to use the specific word for what I’m creating, but it is ultimately a project.

 

Jen Carrington [00:03:07]:

And the word project does resonate with how my brain works for sure.

 

Kate Henry [00:03:10]:

Yeah. Do you find that your clients are using like the concept of project as well? Like I know you work with. Your clients are doing all different kinds of work in their businesses, but is that a word that you hear like popping up in conversations?

 

Jen Carrington [00:03:23]:

I would say gut instinct. Maybe 50% of the time clients use the word project specifically. I’ve actually had quite a few clients who say like my creative project is a phrase that I’ve heard. I just think project is enough space to define it for ourselves. It’s not actually a very boxed in term. We can kind of define for ourselves what a project is because sometimes it’s a closed loop, sometimes it’s open ended. I really like it as. I’m guessing you like it as a word.

 

Jen Carrington [00:03:48]:

It encompasses a lot but has room to breathe and which I think helps it be flexible to our own needs.

 

Kate Henry [00:03:55]:

I do like the concept of a project. I was really intrigued when I started this podcast. There’s this poet, Dottie Lasky who talks about like when we make something, a project like it could potentially take away from the quality of the art, we become more interested in the project. You know, like the act of doing whatever the steps are of the project does it lose value. But I find that it’s a really helpful framework for planning and breaking down a task list and deadlines. Like I like that part of projects.

 

Jen Carrington [00:04:26]:

Yeah, I love gentle planning is kind of my approach. Like I’m a big fan of taking ultimately a project and my whole thing is like blending it with our capacity and making a plan that’s in alignment with the two of them. So I probably most of the time ultimately talking about projects just using different. So yeah, I actually, I really love it as a framework and I’m using it all the time in my life. I just, I, yeah, like I said, I tend to go more for the specific thing rather than say Project. But yeah, I love projects as a phrase.

 

Kate Henry [00:04:56]:

I love that too. When I talk about your work to folks, I really, I see you as someone who like walks their talk. Like you really walk your talk when it comes to having sustainable approach to productivity and work and business. And I’ve been researching productivity for many years. I’ve learned personally, like I feel skeptical whenever there’s promises like, oh, you can work less, you can earn more money. And I find that it’s often and rooted in exploitative delegation or has like a one size fits all approach that assumes we all have the same time and energy and money and things like that. And your approach to developing your simple and spacious business, it really feels like a breath of fresh air. It feels like it’s really rooted in care for yourself.

 

Kate Henry [00:05:40]:

It feels like when you teach this to your clients, it’s rooted in care and respect for the reality of their lives. And I’d love if you could tell us a bit about what running a simple and spacious business means to you. Like what do you like about that framework and what does this look like for you?

 

Jen Carrington [00:05:57]:

Yeah, I also really agree with you. I think, I think anything that promises any particular outcome is exploitative in and of itself because it is tapping into that ultimate desire as a human being to control life when life is uncontrollable. I actually can’t remember when that phrase simple and spacious business came to me, but it has been such a pillar of my work for years now. I think ultimately, if I was going to describe it, it is a business that honors our humanness. And within that lens is our physical needs, our emotional needs and our financial needs. Because you can have all the space in the world, but we’ve got bills to pay and children to feed and dogs to feed and like homes to put over our heads. So I am not interested in a business that doesn’t honor all of my humanness. And it’s interesting, like going back to like the piece that you talked about from 2019 is all about the seasons of business.

 

Jen Carrington [00:06:46]:

And it’s interesting, earlier on in my business, in the early years I was just so focused on like, can this just be financially sustainable that I wasn’t asking other questions of what do I need as a human being. So I went on this journey of building a business that was financially viable and was flexible in the way that being self-employed can be. But I was extracting from myself over and over again in terms of undercharging, even though that is a made-up concept in and of itself. But what I basically mean by that was I was charging too little for the work to be sustainable for me to deliver. And therefore I was working so many hours just to make enough money and I was burnt out. But more than that, I mean, I started my business when I was like 22 years old, so I was a baby. But I didn’t know that I was allowed to have boundaries. Like, I didn’t know that I was allowed to say no or I was allowed to say, that’s taking advantage of me, or.

 

Jen Carrington [00:07:41]:

So just the first era of my business was just a lot of extraction because I didn’t know I was worth any better. And then you have burnout and you reshape and redesign your business. And then there’s been so many different seasons where my needs have evolved and therefore my version of a simple and spacious business evolves. Ultimately, you know, I break it down in terms of like, if I have to write like really good marketing copy, what I say is like, it’s a spacious, spacious and flexible work week, a steady and thriving income, and a business where we can honor our humanness. But I think that honoring our humanness encompasses it the most because it’s all pieces of ourselves on the table. I find a lot of us leave different pieces of ourselves off the table in our business because we genuinely do not believe that we’re safe enough to put them on the table. And then we’re burnt out or we’re not reaching our fullest creative expression, or we’re unfulfilled, or we’re actually not able to make enough money because we’re too exhausted to do the work that a sustainable business.

 

Kate Henry [00:08:37]:

I’ve been running my business officially for five years, and we’ll talk about seasons of business in a moment. Cause I think it’s such a brilliant framework. But I’ve gone through seasons where I’ve made a lot less money and then seasons where I’m making a lot of money. And like a, a struggle I’ve encountered over time is like, because I do one to one work, which I enjoy, but like, it’s hard to be like, nope, this is enough one to one clients. Like, if an extra person reaches out and I’m like, I would love that money. You know, like, there is this feeling that we can have from like seasons of scarcity to not set or hold boundaries. Or for me, I’ll speak from the eye. Like for me to not set or hold boundaries around how much work I can truly do.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:19]:

Because I’m like, well, more money is always going to be Better and equal, more security or something, you know, like, have you had a similar experience? Like I know in like your work is you have some one to one and then also over time have switched to do more like one-to-many work. Like could you tell us a little bit about what that journey has been like and if you feel like that has created any, like helped you to have, you know, more like very part time hours to honor time that you need for rest and family.

 

Jen Carrington [00:09:46]:

In 2015, when I started my business, up until 2022, the majority of my income was one on one work, and I was the same as you. Especially in the early years, especially when my prices were lower and the Internet was just a different place. I think back then where it was just a lot easier to reach new people. Like there was, it was just a lot easier. I was getting a lot of inquiries. I was very. I’d already built an audience before I started my business. I’ve been blogging for a few years.

 

Jen Carrington [00:10:13]:

So when I decided to start coaching, it wasn’t that difficult for me because I had an odd community built up already. And so in those early years I would never say no to a client because like you said, I was chasing that feeling of security and stability. I come from a very working-class background. There is no financial safety net for me. I was my own financial safety net. It took me a long time to really move through those feelings of like, I need to feel safe at all times by taking on all the work I can get. And so for many years, I mean I used to have like 20 plus one on one calls a week, which now when I think about it like I feel like I feel stressed in my body. But I had this massive problem in my business where my one-on-one container was jam packed with calls.

 

Jen Carrington [00:11:00]:

I filled it with calls because that’s what I thought was the most valuable way that I could be there for a client. But I would also do so many calls in a package. Clients are human beings. They can’t show up for every single call all the time. They often need to reschedule, but you don’t get paid for that extra time. So the way I planned out my schedule, I would often find myself with like 50% more work in the calendar purely because of clients carrying over. So everyone was becoming a mess. And I was, for many years I was, I was not charging sustainably in terms of how many hours I needed to work to make enough money.

 

Jen Carrington [00:11:33]:

And then I dabbled with like a few courses here or there and a few digital products. But I don’t have like a massive email list. I have run my business like around 3,000 people on my email list for like a decade now. And it kind of the same amount of people subscribe as unsubscribe a year. And I say that just to give context of if you’ve got 20,000 people on an email list, you can sell a fifty-dollar course and make a lot of money. But when you’ve got a smaller community, you can’t usually make a big, sizable chunk of your income from lower ticket products. I had my son in 2020, and I came back to work when I was five and a half weeks postpartum. So I took an eight-week maternity leave because I had so many clients carrying over and I was so afraid to like let anybody down and disappoint anyone.

 

Jen Carrington [00:12:21]:

I had a C section. I had like lost like a quarter of my body. But when I gave birth it was, I was a mess. It was also the. I was so unwell. I came back to work. I don’t understand why I don’t just go back and tell that version of me take another month. I had built this relationship in my business where I had not put my humanness on the table one bit.

 

Jen Carrington [00:12:41]:

So I came back to work and thankfully back then I was probably only working maybe 15 to 20 hours a week. I built my business at that place, but I’d had a kid. And then in 2021 I collapsed one day and I had to go have a brain scan. And then the chronic illness that I’ve had my whole life, it started to become a lot more symptomatic and I was very unwell. And so I realized I can’t keep going like this. I can’t keep having this much work on where I don’t have the flexibility to not be on, you know, so many calls every week. I’m the breadwinner for my family, so I can’t just stop making enough money. And I knew listen on many calls with my clients, I’m actually having the same conversations in some form over and over and over again.

 

Jen Carrington [00:13:22]:

All of my work lives in my brain and I therefore can only make money one call at a time. So I basically knew that I wanted to build a group program where I could do as close to the work I can do one on one, but in a more asynchronous way and in a more accessible way as well. So I built my group program your simple space with business. And that was the ultimate turning point for like that was after Building that by about 2023, which was about a year after building it. I think that was when I was able to drop down to about 210 hours a week. And I’m also from 2023. It was either 2023 or 2024. I made the biggest, most impactful change was I now only have one on one calls one month a quarter.

 

Jen Carrington [00:14:05]:

So four months a year I have one day a week of calls. And then eight months a year I have 01 on one calls. But I’m in boxer with my clients, sending voice notes back and forth. So there was two layers of building a group program, completely changing my one on one offer, moving to more asynchronous delivery in general, for the majority of my group program is delivered asynchronously. There are group calls in it. But it’s interesting, in the beginning I didn’t have a lot of group calls and I built more in as my capacity for them has grown. So for me, it was actually a massive business model overhaul that was built from the inside out of what do I need as a human being? What work am I devoted to delivering, but also what needs to be honored for me. And now truly, I feel like I’m doing my best work.

 

Jen Carrington [00:14:49]:

I’m also able to tend to my human nurse and have so much flexibility even when life has like really kicked my ass. This year, like, my business has not fallen apart because I deeply made space for my humanness in my business. And this is why I’m obsessed with what I do for my clients, because we all are human beings. Like, even if your life is going amazingly, you are one bad, like, personal crisis away from needing a whole lot more space than we think we need. None of us are not vulnerable to and also, like, we all have way more needs than we give ourselves permission to have. That is ultimately what I find. And I am just very passionate and devoted to supporting us to put our humanity on the table and then figure out the pie of how do I honor my humanness in the way that I design my business, but then also, how do I honor my humanness in the way that I live my life and run my business every single week? Because they actually are two different, different things. I find there’s the design of the business, but then on a weekly basis, the business is throwing different things at you and life’s throwing different things at you.

 

Jen Carrington [00:15:53]:

And ultimately, are we responding to them from a place of scarcity? Are we responding to those situations from a place of feeling like we’re not good enough of Questioning our worth and our worthiness of taking up space? Or are we solving whatever problems are coming our way by knowing that we are worthy of honoring our humanness? I feel like I’ve said humanness. Ten words.

 

Kate Henry [00:16:12]:

No, we need to hear humanness. Thank you for saying that. I’m like tearing up as you’re talking. I’m feeling so valuable, validated and inspired. Like, I often think of this as someone who also has some chronic illnesses that like, I feel very privileged to work for myself and work from home. And also when I think about if I were working like a 40 hour a week job where I had to like stand or sit or look at screens or do that, I’m like, I don’t think I would. It would so entirely wreck my body that I feel like I have to make working for myself from home a possibility for myself or else I would not have my humanness if I were doing that. And also hearing you talk about this makes me feel like very grateful.

 

Kate Henry [00:16:50]:

Like, so I was an early listener for your podcast with Sarah Tasker, the Letters from a Hopeful Creative, and was listening to that before I started my business and while I was like starting my business. So the things that you’re sharing today, I think really inform your business ethics for many, many years. So I’m very grateful that I could learn from you while I was navigating, starting the business process.

 

Jen Carrington [00:17:16]:

I’m honored. And also just I, I relate to you. You know, many people say, oh, it’s okay if your business doesn’t work out, you can just go get a day job. For most people I work with, that is actually not an option. Whether it’s due to health needs, mental health needs, neurodivergence, caregiving responsibilities. Many of us could actually not, we could maybe survive on like a basic level, but a piece of us would be have to be deeply sacrificed to be able to, to do that. And but we without flexibility, our businesses can’t better. As I started my business on the other side of a mental health breakdown in my early 20s, I had my chronic illness that I was born with, but it was diagnosed when I was 16.

 

Jen Carrington [00:17:54]:

It was symptomatic, but it wasn’t as disabling as it became later into my 20s that became more symptomatic. About four years ago this year, I’ve been diagnosed with a second chronic illness like the. We all have so many needs. The would make functioning in the traditional workplace impossible for us. And I think many of us feel really alone in that. I think many of us feel like we’re the only person who needs to make these accommodations for ourselves. And we can feel really self conscious because many of us have grown up in communities and environments where our needs were shamed and where our needs were judged and where we were either punished or criticized for our needs. So even if anyone’s listening to this and they’re like, well, good for you, but that would feel impossible to my nervous system to honor my humanness.

 

Jen Carrington [00:18:38]:

It did for me for a very long and even now sometimes I will have that voice of judgment to myself. But I’m very grateful that I’ve learned no one benefits from my suffering. Nobody, like nobody benefits from my suffering. And also I’m interested in sustainability of the work of my life, of my well being, of my relationships and my body and my mind demand space and rest and care to make that possible for me. But I don’t want to dismiss anyone who maybe is listening to this and that feels so far away from what your body feels safe to offer you right now, because that’s not on you, that’s on environments that have embedded that belief inside of you. But I hope this gives you hope that you can move through that with the right support, whether that’s therapy or practices that support you to know that you are safe to put your human on the table.

 

Kate Henry [00:19:29]:

In my experience, like I started my business in 2020 right after my PhD and it took a few years before I was still working part time, you know, as a writing tutor and like doing consulting gigs and stuff before I shifted to like fully making all of my income from my business over the last few years. So it took time and I’m sure at some point I will need another take a part time gig and then come back. Like there’s no magic one way to do this. We’re scrappy and we figure it out as we go. We’ve mentioned the eight seasons of business a few times now and as I said to you in the email, like it really blew my mind when I read it in 2019 and I returned to it over and over. And just the framework of moving through something as a season has helped me to have more self compassion and more clarity and just a reminder that you know, things are not going to be permanent. And I’d love if you could talk to us about this concept of navigating seasons and like how it’s been helpful for you or your clients and how might listeners apply that concept of like seasons in life, whether they run their own business or outside of business. I find that it’s incredibly helpful framework.

 

Jen Carrington [00:20:42]:

Yeah. I think one of the ways we can keep ourselves the most stuck is by feeling like we should be experiencing a different version of our life than we actually are. Like, I should be being more productive right now, or I should be having more growth, or especially when we’re comparing ourselves to other people. So this concept of seasons, I think, is just natural. Like, we live in a seasonal life. We live in a cyclical world. So of course we as human beings would also experience seasons. It wouldn’t make sense not to.

 

Jen Carrington [00:21:08]:

Number one. And I think sometimes we choose the season we’re in, and sometimes the season chooses us. And I think the seasons that choose us are sometimes the harder ones. If you’re in a season of deep rest because you’ve been through something hard, or you’ve been for a season of burnout, or your life just demands a slower pace, you. That can feel really challenging when you don’t want to be in that season. But not working within the realities of that season is what actually keeps you from moving through that season. How your body and mind need to and how your work needs to as well. And then other times, if you’d have asked me this, even like 2017, 2018, like when I was in those early years of business, I would have been like, well, when you’re building a business, you know, you’ve got to be in this, like, not hustle.

 

Jen Carrington [00:21:47]:

I’ve never been like that. You know, you’ve got to be in like the growth stage and you’ve got to kind of like get it off the ground. I don’t know if I fully. I have worked with so many people who that energy is not possible for whatsoever. It is just not possible. And even. And if I was starting my business now in this body, that would not have been possible for me. But there is those seasons where you are, and I call it gentle growth, where you are gently pursuing a project or a goal or a desire, and you get to decide what pace you go at and you get to change your pace whenever you damn want to, and you get to work with your capacity.

 

Jen Carrington [00:22:19]:

So there’s all these different seasons, whether it’s a season of pursuing something or a season of just like maintaining something or a season of. Of healing from something. And the seasons really, you get to define for yourself. I imagine they all fit in the same buckets of growth, maintenance, rest, recovery, exploration. I remember I was reading the post and the first one I called it was like a flicker of a flame season. So those seasons when we’re not doing anything. But we’re like dating our ideas a little bit when we’re playing with them a little bit. So this concept is so built in me now.

 

Jen Carrington [00:22:51]:

I think of everything in a season. What I’ve learned is, is sometimes seasons last years, and it’s just the season that you’re in. Oftentimes you’re not in the season you want you to choose, and that is okay. But I just find it really freeing to accept where I am at all times. And I find with the people I work with as well, just not fighting against whatever is true for you, but also not ignoring whatever needs to be true for you in that moment too. And sometimes we do have the privilege of capacity to choose, like, to be like, you know what? I’ve got more capacity right now. I want to move into a season of pursuing something new. But every single client I took this year has been through something in their life that has defined some of their season for them.

 

Jen Carrington [00:23:36]:

And I think if this year has taught me anything, it’s that we’re all just going through it a lot of the time, yet we still need to make money and we still want to feel creatively fulfilled and we still want to feel connected and we still want to feel true to ourselves. And how do we do that? How do we honor the realities of our life and the realities of our dreams and financial needs and our creative desires too? And I wonder if that’s where I find the seasonal framework most helpful is just let’s be honest with myself around my capacity, my pace and my desires right now.

 

Kate Henry [00:24:06]:

Thank you for explaining this all. It feels like this real or I’ve approached this season framework with like, what do I need to give myself permission to, like, let go or to do more or less of. And also predicting or like, doing some proactive planning around, like, okay, I know that every winter when I don’t have sun that I may feel these different ways or I know even if the season is a week or six months, sometimes it’s something I can plan ahead for and set up some scaffolding or support or know, okay, I need to take more rest during that season or something or I’ll have more energy and so I’m actually going to do more work or something. But I’ve just found it to be such a incredibly helpful framework and a way to, you know, have grace with myself.

 

Jen Carrington [00:24:55]:

Yeah, I think grace is the word that we all need more of. Like, nothing good comes from. We’re so wired to be cruel to ourselves. Why am I not doing this thing. Why am I not making this progress? Why am I not achieving more? The answer is always reasonable. Because you’re tired, because you’ve had a lot going on, because the pace you expected of yourself in the first place was entirely unkind and unreasonable. Like there is. And the answer is never you’re lazy or you’re not good enough.

 

Jen Carrington [00:25:19]:

Like, that’s never the answer. But that is the conclusion we jump to so fast because life has wired so many of us to be so cruel to ourselves. But yeah, great. If I’m ever like, stuck, I’m like, if I was showing myself grace, what would I say? That usually leads me to what I need to know next for me. My son has just started school this autumn. For five years I’ve been a stay at home, work from home mom. Like, he has been here in the apartment most days. That was a five year season of pure delight and overstimulation.

 

Jen Carrington [00:25:50]:

And now I’m in a season of like a quiet home to work. What are a revelation. You know, like, sometimes seasons last big chunks of time as well. And that is. And then sometimes it’s like, oh, I’ve got six months of really going towards a big project and then I’m going to take a year to just slow down and coast a little bit. Like, the timings can be whatever you want them to be and whatever you need them to be.

 

Kate Henry [00:26:13]:

Oh, you mentioned earlier and I’d love if you could tell us a bit more. You. This year has been a wild season for you. You recently had your Crohn’s diagnosis and I know that like, you’ve shared in some newsletters how you may or may not be shifting being the primary breadwinner right now. Like, your, your spouse has a new position. Right. Like, could you tell us a bit about what your journey has been like with the Crohn’s diagnosis? I know when you shared on your podcast, you like, it was a little scary for a while when you weren’t sure what was. And like how, how you’re shifting your approach to your, your business and your life now as you’re accommodating to that.

 

Jen Carrington [00:26:50]:

Yeah. You know that phrase like life laughs when you’re making plans or something like this. This year it was. So my husband decided last. So my husband had been predominantly a stay at home dad for like five years or August. He’s been at home with us. He has a very small like podcast editing workload, but I’m talking tiny clients that he just kept on. Mostly he’d been stay at Home.

 

Jen Carrington [00:27:10]:

And then as August settled into preschool a little bit last year for a couple of days. My husband has always wanted to be a soft, but that’s what he’s always wanted to do. So he was like, I’m going to retrain last year. And we thought for a long time he would stay self employed, maybe he’d build software or he’d get freelance work. But then he sat me down one day and he was like, I want to get a job. And I was like, what? I was like, what are you talking about? And he, my husband, his beautiful, wonderful, neurodivergent brain just does not pride working for himself. And so he was like, I want to be in a team. I want to study paycheck.

 

Jen Carrington [00:27:39]:

And he was also like, I want to contribute more financially to our family and like, take some pressure off you. And it was the first time in a decade that my body could actually hear the fact that I didn’t actually want to be the sole breadwinner anymore. I was like, oh, that kind of sounds kind of nice. So we had this big plan heading into 2025 that August was going to start school in the autumn. Alex was going to look for a job because he did a boot camp last year to retrain. And I was like, cool. So when Alex gets a job, I can either pay cut if I want to and our family finances can kind of just stay the same, or I can keep earning what I earn and we just have a lot more to save and invest. I was like, I can just play it by ear, but August is going to start school and I’m finally going to have all this space to explore what I want next for this chapter of my life.

 

Jen Carrington [00:28:22]:

And I can do some creative projects and all this stuff. And then this summer I got really, really sick. So my chronic illness, my neurological condition has been very symptomatic for years. Last year I would. It was hilarious. I would have said last year was the hardest health year I’ve ever had. This year laughed in the face of that statement. I started to get really sick this summer and I had to go to hospital and I had a bunch of tests.

 

Jen Carrington [00:28:44]:

And I shared about this in my newsletter. A test came back that put me on like a cancer pathway, like an urgent cancer. And it was the scariest phone call I’ve ever received in my life. And I know there’s people who I worked with who the outcome wasn’t what I got. My outcome was not cancer, which was such a relief. I know how lucky I am that it was not cancer, but it was. It’s currently being treated as Crohn’s disease, but I just have to wait. And the biopsies have confirmed that, but I have to wait to see a specialist to get it all signed off.

 

Jen Carrington [00:29:11]:

But as of right now, it is being treated as a Crohn’s diagnosis. And I have been, for the past five months, the sickest I think, I’ve ever been. Even, like a few years ago, when I. When my Chiari malformation, which many of you have not heard of, it’s a rare disease, but that is my neurological condition. Basically, the base of my brain herniates into my spine, and it causes a whole lot of havoc in my body. This is the sickest I’ve ever been. But what happens is because my body’s under so much stress with the Crohn’s, the Chiari is also. So everything is just coming at me, and I’ve been incredibly unwell, and I’m.

 

Jen Carrington [00:29:42]:

And it’s been such a challenging season, and then my son started school and my husband started a job, and it’s all just been all kinds of a lot. But I don’t know how to say this about Simon. Like, I’m bragging, and I do not mean this to say that I’m bragging, but the truth is, my health has fallen apart, but my business hasn’t. My business has literally, it’s like, past us, knew something that we didn’t know until now, which is, like, I so deeply put my humanness on the table that this year I could just meet it. It was just like, oh, you’re gonna fall apart. Fine. Take time off. Move things around.

 

Jen Carrington [00:30:16]:

Like, I was just able to honor my humanness and that I feel as pissed off as I am that I have Crohn’s disease. I’m like, you know what? If anyone could handle this, I can, because I’ve already had to deeply build my life around a chronic illness. I have been sitting with the question of, like, why did one chronic illness not teach me everything I was supposed to learn about, like, what is this here to teach me? How am I supposed to grow through this? But it’s been a very challenging year. And also I felt so loved and so held for it by my. My husband and my mother and. And my friends, and my business has just, like, held me through it. And also the fact that my husband’s So. A month ago, he started a day job, and I will still be, like, the main earner for our family for quite a few years, but now that for the first time ever, really, another salary is coming into the household, has done something to my nervous system that just feels so nice.

 

Jen Carrington [00:31:09]:

And my husband has now entered a industry, tech, where as the years go on, he should be able to catch up to what I earn. And then long run, our financial situation should bounce out a little bit. So I’m very grateful that I’m okay that I’m here. And also, it’s been a really hard year, but it has shown me more than ever why honoring our humanness is so important. Because life is going to throw crazy stuff away, whether we like it or not. And also when you go through hard things or when you are running a business with less capacity, I don’t know about you. Like, for me, it removes any traditional version of success from the table. For me, I found a little bit less money this year than I did last year.

 

Jen Carrington [00:31:50]:

I don’t care. Have the bills been paid? Is everything fine? Yes. Like, I don’t care about growth. I don’t care about any of that. I’m like, do I have enough? Am I doing good work? Am I happy? Am I cared for? And even productivity, Like, I don’t ever think about, am I being productive? Because that is not a framework that’s even accessible to me as a chronically ill person. So, yeah, it’s been a hard year, but I guess that’s life. We all have prefer things.

 

Kate Henry [00:32:17]:

Thank you for sharing about this. This is really helpful to hear and I think it’s a testament to again, like, I feel like you walk your talk when you’re not just like, wouldn’t it be nice to have a simple and spacious business? Like, this is not a trick. Like, you have been setting this up for many years, so I’m not surprised that your business was able to, like, have, you know, some flexibility and hold you right now through this. Yeah, I feel about most things that I’m like, I’m fine just doing like a good enough job. Like, I’m happy to be, like, mediocre. It’s not like I’m good at my job. I support people. I really care about that.

 

Kate Henry [00:32:52]:

And also everything else, I’m like, I don’t need to be. Are my needs met? Does my dog have her treats? You know, like, do I have, like, the things that can I exercise? You know, like, can I do the things I care about? So we just talked about the eight seasons of business, which is a phenomenal framework. And earlier we talked about just like the concept of like a simple and spacious business. Thinking about Your humanness. You have these awesome frameworks and language you use. And I want to ask you about another framework which this is something that I’ve learned from courses that you’ve taught before in your writing. And again, I think you walk your talk and I think it’s brilliant how you market as like an invitation to join and to work with you. And I want to ask you about the language you use with like putting your lights on to invite folks to work with you.

 

Kate Henry [00:33:41]:

I feel like this is very ethical. I never feel any pressure or anything like from any of your marketing. And it feels really comforting and encouraging for me as someone who can kind of can feel nervous about marketing to folks. So could you tell us a bit more about what it means to put your lights on? Maybe too, could you sneak in here and talk about like when you’ve talked about like your hell yes people? Like, I feel like those are in conversation and that’s another phenomenal framework that you have. And I feel like my business is also like a hundred hell yes people business because I only work with like 10 to 15 clients at a time. Right. So tell us a bit about these two. Cool.

 

Kate Henry [00:34:21]:

Like what, what does it mean to like put the lights on? What does it mean to be marketing to your, your Helios people?

 

Jen Carrington [00:34:27]:

I actually have this free toolkit. I’m super happy to share it with you people called 100 people. And basically my marketing philosophy is built around sowing seeds and putting our lights on. So I’m so much more interested in residents than I am in excessive, like algorithmic, friendly, diluted version of myself. Like sowing seeds means like ultimately to have a successful business in the terms of making the sales that we need to make to make it sustainable for us, all we really have to do is reach our highest people, resonate with them, nurture that relationship with them, and then put our lights on and make it easy for them to join our offers when the time is right for them. We don’t need any urgency marketing. We don’t need to tap into pain points. I don’t know about you.

 

Jen Carrington [00:35:13]:

Like, the trend I see so much at the moment is like literally create a problem for someone and then sell them the solution. Like literally tell them they’ve got a problem they didn’t think they had and then sell them a solution. Because I have really long term relationships with my clients and customers. My group program is a lifetime program. So someone joins it, pays one, they’re in it because people in my program have been knit for almost four years now. Like, I go on very long term relationships with my clients and my clients tend to work me for a long time. I am not interested in making a sale. I’m here to make relationships that are meaningful and impactful.

 

Jen Carrington [00:35:44]:

And walking with someone, truly what I’m doing is I’m walking with people in their journey. I don’t want an activated nervous system to buy from me. I want people to feel so damn calm when they hit that buy button because then it feels like a homecoming to the support that they need and not like, oh, if I don’t buy this, I’m going to fail and I’ll be a loser. Like, I hate that energy. But so many people do tap into that energy. So with marketing, what I’ve always done is just show up, help people discover that I exist, just share myself and I do that. I’m much more comfortable in long form content. So for many years I podcasted a lot.

 

Jen Carrington [00:36:20]:

I’ve always written a newsletter. I have my Substack. One of my desires is to get back to podcasting more. It’s just always an energy thing for me and just like connect with people on word of mouth tends to do a lot. Moves me a lot. And my 100 hell yes people. I always like to ask someone like, how long would 100 hell yes customers sustain your business for now, for many of us who are one on one or one to many in terms of like smaller group programs, 100 customers would sustain me for over a year. For over.

 

Jen Carrington [00:36:49]:

I don’t need thousands of people to connect with me and want to buy with from me to sustain my business. And when you actually break down like, oh, I need 100, say you need 100 people to sustain your business for the next 18 months. Let’s put that number out there. That feels a lot better in my body than feeling like, well, I need a reel to go viral on Instagram for my business to survive. And so it’s just like. And then I always, I’m like, okay, just focus on reaching 100 hell yes people at a time. Now maybe 50 of them are actually already in your community. They’re just continuing to wait for the right time to join your offer.

 

Jen Carrington [00:37:25]:

And it is none of our business when the right time is for them to join our offer. It’s not my job to persuade, convince. It’s just my job to make it really easy for them to say yes when the time is right for them. And then we put our lights on. What I mean by this is when I have something that I have to Sell. I put my lights on by saying, hey, by the way, I’m selling this thing. Or hey, by the way, let me give you a taster of what this thing is. Like, let me tell you what other people are saying about this thing.

 

Jen Carrington [00:37:51]:

By the way, no pressure. If you just want my free stuff and never buy from me, cool. Like, what a privilege that I can support you even with never having spoken to you, know what I mean? Like the whole, I just trust in the ecosystem of the whole damn thing of like me showing up as my full self and being of service and sowing seeds and then gently putting my lights on. And obviously the, the routes that we do this may shift and change depending on the industry. So it’s like back in the day and I’m talking 2015. I used to be able to book up, up six months in advance just by putting one Instagram story up saying, hey, I’m booking clients. That doesn’t work anymore. We live in a different world now.

 

Jen Carrington [00:38:33]:

The avenue and the platforms may change, but the philosophy has never changed for me, which is focus on reaching the people who my work really resonates with. So seeds and help them connect with me. Because ultimately when they’re investing in my offers, they’re investing in a relationship with me. And so I want them to be all in on that so that they’re not surprised when they come inside and see what they get. And also, like, I imagine it’s the same to you, Kate. Like, I love being in deep relationship with my clients and customers. I love my like two closest business friends were clients of mine years ago. Like, I’ve had like best friends from that work.

 

Jen Carrington [00:39:09]:

Do you know what I mean? Like being in a space where we all just honor each other’s humanness and bear witness to each other’s just existence and lived experiences. I want someone to have that relationship with me before they jump into an offer. And then putting our lights on is literally just. I think the most people I find with marketing, when it’s not flowing, it’s because they’re either not reaching enough Helios people, they’re not sowing seeds with the healthiest people, or they’re not putting their lights on. We all tend to be, I find, be a bit more comfortable with one over the other. But for a lot of people, the not putting the lights on tends to be what they shy away from because it’s scary to sell, it’s scary to take up that space. But I think when you stop thinking that as selling and more is inviting, I Find always it’s about nervous system work. Like, are we tending to our nervous system so that we feel safe to take up space? If we don’t feel safe to take up space, we’re not going to, we’re actually not going to do it.

 

Jen Carrington [00:40:00]:

Most of us know what to do, but do we feel safe enough to do it and do we feel worthy enough to take up that space and to be seen? For so many of us, it’s the fear of being seen as well. So it’s emotional work to sell. I think it asks a lot of us.

 

Kate Henry [00:40:16]:

It is emotional work. And I find that I also have like the hell yes business where hell yes people business where like I work with clients for like one on one for like a six month package. The majority of these clients renew again. Like I have like some clients I’ve been working with for five years straight or three years, you know, so like it is like that deep relationship building. And I find that when folks hire me, more often than not they’re like, I’ve been reading your newsletter for five years. Or I’ve been following you since way back when you were in grad school, you know, so like folks, when they do work with me, they’re like, I know, I trust you. My friends work with you and they recommended you to me, you know, so I, it can be like pressure anytime. I’m like, hey, my books are open, you know, like to be like, oh, I hope people book.

 

Kate Henry [00:41:01]:

I want to pay my bills, you know, But I do just, I trust that the books will fill and they do.

 

Jen Carrington [00:41:09]:

At some point we have to trust because forcing it doesn’t work either. Because whenever we feel scarcity, I think that’s when we start to see other people as money. Do you know what I mean? Like if I start to think of, well, if you don’t buy from me, I don’t ever want to see someone as a potential avenue for money. The money is actually the byproduct of the work. I like to see it. Yes, it costs money to work with me because I have to charge for my time. But ultimately we’re in a relationship with each other and the money is just what makes it sustainable. And I’m not in business to make like, I don’t have big financial, like excessive financial goals here.

 

Jen Carrington [00:41:44]:

Like, as long as I have enough money and I could provide for my family and I can retire one day, I’m happy, I’m good. I don’t need multiple six figures a year to feel good about my life. I just don’t need that. And that’s not to shame anyone if your life, if your version of a good rich life does include those numbers. But I just don’t ever want to feel like people are something for me to extract from. Just like I don’t ever want to feel like I am something to be extracted from, which took me a long time to learn that I was even allowed to say that in my business. All this house stuff I’ve been going through this year, and thankfully nothing massively got disrupted in the business because I don’t have that many calls because it’s asynchronously like, I could deliver. I couldn’t do boxer lying down in bed.

 

Jen Carrington [00:42:28]:

And like, because a lot my program is delivered asynchronously. Not a lot of things got moved around, but a couple of things did. And people showed me so much grace and I got so many emails from the people in my program saying, thank you for modeling to us what it looks like to honor your humanness. And compared to five, six years ago when I was going on maternity leave and people were like, well, how long are you going to be gone for? When will you be back? And it’s just, it’s interesting. What I learned was when you honor your humanness out loud, you only attract people into your offerings who are also want to honor your humanness. As much like, there’s, there’s something about it that sets a standard of what you call in to your business as well, which has been getting through this year. Having people in my containers who celebrate honoring my humanness as made it possible. And I think the only way to do that is by treating yourself like a human being in how you market as well.

 

Jen Carrington [00:43:20]:

Because if you sell to someone with, like, I’m going to solve all your problems if you give me all this money, that’s a very different relationship to like, hey, here’s my work, here’s what you can expect from me. If you would love me to walk with you in this journey, let’s do this at the time that works best for you. It sets such a different tone for the working relationship.

 

Kate Henry [00:43:38]:

Yeah. And I think too, like I was telling you this earlier, like, I work with a lot of folks who have chronic health conditions and I imagine you potentially do as well. Yeah, it’s not, I don’t feel like it’s ethical to be like, okay, we’re gonna like, make everything work perfectly. Like, it’s like rather like, okay, let’s help you navigate systems and institutions that like, aren’t necessarily set up to be accessible or supportive. You know, like, we’re working in institutions and you know, like, under capitalism that like, praises overwork and like, that is a, like, praises hustle. Right? So I’m glad that folks have supports like you and me to help them navigate that and choose alternative ways to do it.

 

Jen Carrington [00:44:16]:

I just don’t think there’s any ethical way to promise maybe for like, I know Amelia is your podcast editor. She can promise to edit your podcast in like, a beautiful way. She’s amazing what she does, but she couldn’t promise how many listeners you’ll get on your neck. You know what I mean? Like, we can’t outcome marketing of, like, I promise you this result. I don’t think there’s any ethical way. I just really don’t believe there’s any ethical way to do that. All we can promise is I will show up, I will hold the space, and I’m bringing this experience to the table and I will be devoted to our working relationship. That’s what I can promise.

 

Jen Carrington [00:44:47]:

I’m all in with you, but life is messy and also, like, look what’s happened this year in terms of just what’s happened on a world scale. Like, you can’t promise anything when crazy, crazy things are happening out of our, any of our control. Yeah.

 

Kate Henry [00:45:03]:

All right. I want to shift this from talking about business, which honestly, I could talk to you about business for like 10 hours straight. I really hope that folks will sign up for your mailing list and like, follow the work that you’re doing because it’s phenomenal. But you share in your newsletters. And this is how I learned that we’re both fans of Romantasy. You share and even in your bio, like, you really love to read and I love reading your reading list. And I’m curious to hear, like, how are you prioritizing rest and creativity? I know this shifts like season to season, but like, do you have any habits or do you have any practices that help you to have that space to create or to read outside of work?

 

Jen Carrington [00:45:43]:

My days do not revolve around work. I’ve really decentered work in my life and even decentered like productivity. And what I mean by that is like, I work eight to ten hours a week. I work three part time days, days a week now up until September, almost all of that other time was with my son. He actually he started preschool when he was three and a half. So about a year and a half ago, a Wednesday started to become just my day for me. So, like, as I got more split like on the, like Fridays were all with him and on my work days when I wasn’t working either, he was with my mum for a little bit of time on my husband, but I was around. But work is not.

 

Jen Carrington [00:46:20]:

Work is the thing I do the least in the week. Like I’m working eight to ten hours a week. I’ve built my business to make that possible. And also just had the privilege of being. Things have gone my way enough in the business that that’s impossible if you know that sometimes it is just being right place, right time and the look met with the work and stuff. So for me, I am most of the time filling up my own cup. Also I have to spend a lot of time lying down in bed, like a lot of time resting. And I also spend a lot of time like I do 10k steps a day just walking my son to and from school.

 

Jen Carrington [00:46:51]:

So like I’m moving, I’m getting my steps in, then I’m coming home and I’m resting. So for me, reading and doing things for myself is just so naturally built into my day because without it I think my mental and physical health would be gone. Like it just wouldn’t be here. So work fits into if I’m planning out a day. Like for example, did you read Quicksilver by Kali Hart?

 

Kate Henry [00:47:14]:

I haven’t, no.

 

Jen Carrington [00:47:15]:

I didn’t read it when it first came out because the COVID was not my taste. But then the new cover came out a month ago or a couple months ago. Anyway, I read Quicksilver in a day. Loved it. The second book in the series comes out next Tuesday. So literally on Tuesday I’m like, okay, I’ve got a little bit of work that needs to get done on Tuesday, but I’m gonna go to the bookshop, I’m gonna pick up Brimstone. Work can just squeeze into my day around me. So I’m reading a lot because when you’re lying down, you gotta do something to pass the time.

 

Jen Carrington [00:47:43]:

Anyway, like I’ve read 102 books so far this year. I think like I read a lot and a lot of the times if I like I’m re listening to. So I read the Empyrean in the books version, then I reread the books and then I got. I’ve onto my like my four realist and of the audiobooks because when I’m sad, when my health is really bad, I just go back to the sky because it makes me happy. So like I’m lying down a lot. I. When I’m walking, I Might listen to podcasts. Like, for me, my days are built around what I need to feel good.

 

Jen Carrington [00:48:15]:

Whether that’s meal prepping, food that my stomach likes, or spending time with friends or going to the bookshop. I go to the library all the time to pick up books. Like, like when I plan my week, life is built in first and then work is put in when it makes sense. And that’s around my kid, my health, my well being. So I know I have quite an extreme work week in the sense of like I work very part time hours and I make a decent income. And it’s really interesting. Since my son started school, I’ve obviously been getting to know all these parents and seeing how stressful it is for them to balance two full time working parents. And I’m like a little self conscious when I’m like, yeah, I work eight hours a week.

 

Jen Carrington [00:48:56]:

Like I see. Like I know how privileged I am in my business to have built it to this place. But yeah, I for me, building in rest and joy for me, the thing I am struggling with. I thought that when August started school I had this big dream that I would, I was like, I want to start writing a novel and I thought I’d have all this creative space. This help stuff has made like that not, not happen as well. But I’ve, I’ve like roughly drafted it. I’ve made a playlist and my dream is Friday. So I only worked Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays.

 

Jen Carrington [00:49:27]:

Like I’ve, I’ve made an outline. I’m not drafted the book. Like I’ve made like a plot, like a point of like maybe this is where the story will go. I’ve made a playlist and my dream is Fridays. I’ll drop him off at school because I don’t work on Fridays and I’ll go to a coffee shop near the school and I’ll just spend an hour with my novel and like that. But then like last Friday I was really sick and I couldn’t do it. But I’m like, it’s okay if I can’t do every Friday. I’ll do the Fridays that I can do.

 

Jen Carrington [00:49:50]:

But I think ultimately for me, having such a spacious work week allows me to prioritize because obviously the mornings are crazy because I’m getting my kid ready for school and once he’s home from school, it’s crazy. I also think like becoming a parent just means that I am more protective of my alone time when it’s there for me than ever before because it’s so overstimulated. So I love him to bits, but he so overstimulating. So yeah, I don’t know if that is helpful for anyone apart from just I have the space, therefore I use the space to fill up my own corp. And also, like, I don’t know about you. Like, as a child, all I did was read. All I wanted to do was like, live in imaginary worlds. And I really think what they say is true when they say, like, who you were as a child is so much like the truest version of yourself.

 

Jen Carrington [00:50:36]:

And it’s like, I’m just happiest when I’m in imaginary worlds. Like, that is just. I love to see my friends, but. But I would much rather spend a lot of time with a book and see my friends a little bit of the time. Like, I’m just happiest when I’m reading and I’m in so much pain a lot of the time that I will just choose as much joy as I can. And also I think that’s why I still have the capacity to pour into my clients and pour into my business because my cup is full still.

 

Kate Henry [00:51:00]:

Yes, thank you for talking to us about this. Have you read the Night in the Moss?

 

Jen Carrington [00:51:06]:

I got it from the library while I was having like all my colonoscopy and everything. So, like, I wasn’t in a place where, like, I was reading a lot. And then I also got Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil and I’ve heard very good things about that one, but I also got that during that time. So I haven’t read the Night and the Moth, but I’m gonna put myself back on because it was like 18 people in the queue at the library for that book. I’ve heard very good things. I’ve heard Rachel Gillig in general is amazing, isn’t she?

 

Kate Henry [00:51:29]:

This is the first book I read by her. But it is like, there’s like tropes in this book that I haven’t seen in other fantasy books. It feels really novel and unique and interesting and the characters are so good. I loved it. It was. It was phenomenal. Yeah. I mean, it just came out and I think there’s like a second one not coming out till next year.

 

Kate Henry [00:51:48]:

But I have the new Jennifer Armentrout book that I bought and I haven’t cracked it open yet. It’s like, I don’t know, 4 inches thick, but it’s like sitting by my bedside to dive back into it. But yeah, I love Romantasy. It’s. I don’t know, it gets me reading and it’s fun and.

 

Jen Carrington [00:52:08]:

And it’s escapist. Like, it’s. There’s actually, like, I live in Manchester, and Liverpool’s like, a fairway. And the first fantasy bookshop in the UK is opening, like, this weekend. So I can’t go this weekend. But I think next weekend we’re gonna drive up and we’re gonna go, and I can’t wait. I’m like, a whole shot for, like, fantasy books. Cannot, cannot wait.

 

Jen Carrington [00:52:29]:

I’m so excited, and it’s only an hour away from me. I’m very excited. But the night in the Mob, I heard there’s a gargoyle in it that everybody loves.

 

Kate Henry [00:52:36]:

That’s why I’m obsessed. I’m obsessed with this book. I want everyone to read it. We have. We have. In Cambridge, which is nearby where I live, there is a romance bookstore that opened, and they have, like, a humongous Romantasy section. And it is a dream. Like, I don’t read a lot of traditional romance, but, like, Romantasy.

 

Kate Henry [00:52:56]:

I love fantasy, too, but, like, I want a little smooching in it. Like, it makes it even more fun. All right, well, the last question I want to ask today before I ask where folks can find you is, what is something that you’re honing in on right now in your life?

 

Jen Carrington [00:53:12]:

I was reflecting on this. I’m like, I’ve got two answers. Is that okay? It’ll be both you. Really? Of course. Yeah. In my life, I’m honing, just healing. Just like this year has destroyed my body. And I am just, like, I am going to heal.

 

Jen Carrington [00:53:28]:

I’m going to take such damn good care of myself because I only get this one life, and I can’t control what is happening to me. But every day, every decision has to be in honor of my healing and honor of my wellness. And then in business, I really want to record before the new year, I want to record a practice episode about, like, when we’re not the same person we were at the start of the year. And in business, what it feels like I’m honing in on is like, who am I now on the other side of this experience? And how does that need to be reflected in. In my business so that I feel like I can be myself? And so, like, I’m getting some new brand photos taken, and I’m gonna really redo my website. And just, like, I just feel like I’ve been through a portal and I’m not the same person. So I guess I’m honing in on what do I need to be. To be tended to and healing, but then also honing in on, like, who am I now after I’ve been through this, like, insane life experience.

 

Jen Carrington [00:54:25]:

I’m just not the same person and don’t want to feel like I have to fit into any old boxes of myself in terms of not really in the work. The work I feel very at home in, but I mean more in, like, taking up space. Like, I just visually feel very different and. And also just like, yeah, really wanting to simplify the whole online. Like, I’ve been thinking a lot. Like, I don’t even want to think of myself as a personal brand. You know what I mean? Like, I just. I’m just.

 

Jen Carrington [00:54:51]:

Yeah, lots of things going on in my brain around being a business owner and a human on the Internet.

 

Kate Henry [00:54:56]:

Oh, my gosh, yes. I can’t wait for you to write about this or record about this and to hear it. I often. I’m like, I just want to be like a witch who lives in the woods and, like, advertises on the cork board at the local co op. Like, that’s. I don’t even want to be on the Internet, you know, but, like, I. I feel you on this. Well, Jen, where can folks find you? And then also, do you have anything coming up that we should keep our eye out for?

 

Jen Carrington [00:55:19]:

So I think by. By the end of the year, either my website will be under construction while I redo it, or the fresh website will be there. But I have my website. I can send Kate the link to 100 hiatus people if you want to sign up for that. The other place to buy me is my Substack. That’s kind of where I talk more about, like, the messy side of just being a human and a business owner. But my newsletter, my Substack, my website, that is nothing is coming up really, at the moment. I’m taking things very chill for the rest of the year and just.

 

Jen Carrington [00:55:47]:

I hope that I’m getting back to more podcast episodes. I’ve got so many ideas. I just need the energy to act because a podcast, I used to be able to just sit down and just, like, record it and just get it done. The brain power it takes now, 10 years later, is very different from. But that would feel really good if I was getting back to a more consistent podcast practice. So fingers crossed that will be happening.

 

Kate Henry [00:56:09]:

Well, fingers crossed on my end for that to happen for you so I can listen to them and enjoy them. Jen, thanks so much for taking time to chat. This is such an honor and really, like, a full circle moment for me to talk to you about your business.

 

Jen Carrington [00:56:22]:

Thank you, Ben. Hey, you’re lovely.

 

Kate Henry [00:56:26]:

Thanks so much for joining me. You can learn more about honing in and my work as a productivity coach on my website, KateHenry.com Take Good Care.