Kate Henry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to Honing in, a podcast for creative thinkers where we’ll hone our skills, explore our passions, and nurture our dream projects into being. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to honing in. I’m Dr. Kate Henry, and today’s episode is already going to be really delightful. I can tell that. I was just telling our guest that there’s so many things we could talk about and we are going to do it. Today I’m interviewing Gabrielle Felder (she/they) and Gabrielle is a writer, data analyst, and aborisa, born and raised in Orange County, California, and is currently based in Los Angeles, California.

 

Kate Henry [00:00:45]:

She explores the history of the African diaspora, drawing from her interdisciplinary background in ecology, anthropology, and data analytics. Passionate about community work, she has trained as a postpartum doula, worked in community gardens, and led Afro-Indigenous ceremonies. She shared her work through speaking engagements with UC Davis Women’s Resources and Research center and the Feminist Center for Creative Work and so many other things which we’re going to get into today. So thanks for taking the time, especially on an early morning, to chat with me, Gabrielle.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:01:21]:

Yeah, of course. I’m super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:26]:

So I’ll start us right out. Honing in is a podcast where I’m talking to creative thinkers about their projects. And I always like to get a take on how people feel about, like, capital P project. So is this a helpful framework for you when you’re thinking about, like, creative or professional or writing projects? We’re going to talk a lot about your book today, which is called the Five Blessings of Ifá: Reclaiming Black Futures Through Afro-Indigenous Spirituality. So we’re going to talk a lot about your book. And while I was reading it, it wasn’t lost on me that you were using language. It was like framework and blueprint. So we can talk about those.

 

Kate Henry [00:02:06]:

But first, tell me, how do you feel about Project? Does that work for you or do you use something else?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:02:10]:

I really like this question. I’ve had to kind of think about the language that I use when I’m talking to myself about the things that I work on. I don’t think I typically use project. I think it’s more amorphous in my head because whenever I’m working on something, I’m always like, is this something I’m gonna finish? And I feel like project feels like there’s a lot more structure to it. And I think that I go into a lot of the things that I work on in a really, like, amorphous sort of capacity, even if it’s like starting a new hobby. I’m like, I’m gonna try this out, but I don’t wanna commit, I guess, too much until I’m deeper into it.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:02:46]:

When I start to use the language of project, then I feel like there’s a little bit more, like, pressure that I’m putting on myself. Like, I want this to look a certain way or feel a certain way or have like a certain outcome. So it kind of depends on, I guess, on where I’m at in the creative process.

 

Kate Henry [00:03:01]:

Yeah, I like that you just said like, thinking around finishing something. I hadn’t thought of that with project, but that makes so much sense. When I think about projects, I’m like, oh, there’s an end goal. I’m working towards the end goal. So do you feel like with something like a hobby or like, even with like, writing, like, are you, or with your, your work with like data analysis or something else, etc. does it feel different when you’re doing something if you’re like, I’m just playing or trying this out, or like, there’s a project that I have an end goal? There are fewer things in my life, unfortunately, that are just like, playful doing. I would like to do more of that.

 

Kate Henry [00:03:36]:

So tell me a bit about that. Like, is that something you feel you do a lot? Because I admired that.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:03:42]:

Yeah, I think I’m trying to. I think the past couple of years I’ve been trying to venture into new avenues for creative spaces. I’m a data analyst by trade. I’m a writer at heart, but I think that I just really like making art in general. So I do crochet and knitting and ceramics and stuff like that. And so especially with ceramics, I feel like you kind of have to go into it not knowing where it’s going to be because you have to accept that failure is just an inherent part of the process. So I’ll have an idea, like I’m going to make a bowl or a vase or something. And then I go into it like we’re just going to mess around.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:04:16]:

And sometimes you just have to let the clay take you where you want to go. And I feel like that comes up a lot even when I’m writing. Like, sometimes I’ll have ideas that I need to just jot down. And then sometimes those ideas will grow into a larger essay. And then like with this project, it grew into a book, but it doesn’t always end up that way. Sometimes it’s just like a couple sentences in a Google Doc or something in my notes app. And that’s kind of where it goes.

 

Kate Henry [00:04:40]:

Let’s like follow this thread thinking about writing. And first, again, congratulations on the publication of your book. This is so thrilling. It’s a phenomenal book. I really enjoyed reading it. It’s so rich and honors so many people. I could go so into depth there, but it just, it feels like such a book of honoring and honoring yourself. And for listeners who haven’t read your book yet, could you share an overview of Ifá and the five blessings that are key to this book?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:05:07]:

Yeah. So the book is grounded in an understanding of the West African tradition of Ifá. It originated in the modern day regions of Nigeria and Benin on the west coast of Africa. But you can kind of find it in a couple other places. But those are the primary locations. Ifá is like about 10,000 years old tradition. It’s really, really old. And I think that an important thing to note with Ifá and a lot of other Indigenous practices, it doesn’t necessarily take the same shape as like what us in the West might think of as a religion.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:05:41]:

It doesn’t have the same like, structure, the same sort of dogma. So it’s in Ifá specifically, it’s an oral tradition. So now there are things that are written down about it. But traditionally all of the knowledge is passed orally through kind of sacred poetry and songs and other ways of like transmitting information. But it’s not typically written down. And because of that, it can kind of shift and change depending on the location that it’s in, because it kind of takes on the flavor of the people that are practicing that traditional. And so Ifá was brought to the Americas via the transatlantic slave trade. So during the transatlantic slave trade, it kind of settled wherever Black folks from Africa settled, but specifically those from Nigeria region, Benin region.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:06:26]:

And you’ll see Ifá show up in a lot of different practices that you might be familiar with today known as like Santería, Lukumi, Candomblé. And so those are primarily in Latin America. And then there’s elements of Ifá that make its way into Haitian Vodou. There’s elements of Ifá that make its way into Voodou, which is a little bit different. But specifically in Louisiana and the South, Hoodoo as well in the Black American South. And so you’ll see little sprinklings of it. And then there’s also other spiritual traditions outside of Ifá that kind of weave into those practices as well. So there’s a lot of like Congolese and a lot of Ghanaian Vodun practices that make its way to The Americas too.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:07:08]:

But yeah, it’s a nature based tradition that focuses primarily on honoring and revering nature. And so the gods and goddesses in Ifá are known as Orishas and they don’t sort of govern over all aspects of life. They kind of are the embodiment of natural forces and different principles and characteristics that people associate with those natural forces. And so for example, a really famous Orisha is Oshun. She’s the Orisha of fresh water. So you would find her in and rivers and streams. There’s the Orisha Yemaya, she’s the Orisha of the ocean. So you’re going to find her on the coast.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:07:43]:

And so depending on, like I said, the way the Ifá is kind of like very regionally specific, depending on where people are, they’re going to honor certain Orishas more than others. So if you live on the coast, then Yemaya is someone that you’re probably working with a lot. If you live in the forest, it might be Ogun. And it also kind of relates to your role in society. So if you are a weaver or a hairdresser, Oshun is a person that you’re going to work with. If you are a blacksmith or if you work with fire a lot, it’s going to be Ogun and Shango. So they kind of govern different aspects of life. And within Ifá there are… Ifá is really focused on a lot of like overarching concepts and themes for like the best way to live your life, which I think is common in most Indigenous practices and religions in general.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:08:29]:

But Ifá kind of uses this framework of different blessings that you are communicating with the Orishas for or working towards in general in life. And they kind of exist in like a hierarchy that I kind of think of in a way that’s similar to like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Like once you have accomplished this blessing, it like paves the way for the other blessings. So the first blessing of Ifá is Aiku, which is the blessing of longevity. It can kind of be translated to like immortality, but that’s not really what it means. It means like being able to have like stuff, carry on into the future. And so you can’t really build a foundation for your life if you aren’t, don’t have a long enough lifespan to be able to work on the projects and creative things that you want to do, but also like carrying your culture, your language forward as well. So that’s Aiku.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:09:19]:

The next one is Ajé, which is wealth. And it’s kind of… it can mean monetary wealth, but it really means like richness and fullness in your life. A lot of times Ifá specifically talks about wealth in relation to one’s community. So the ancestors. I should back up a little bit. Ancestors are a really important part in the tradition. And so when you become an ancestor, it’s not like a guarantee that when you pass on, you’re an ancestor.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:09:46]:

In this tradition, being an ancestor basically means that you have served your community in life and your community is now serving you after your death. And so that kind of ties into the concept of age as well. It’s like, do you have this like, wealth of community that is going to continue to uplift you even after you’re gone? Like, have you made a lasting impact on your friends, your family, your broader community? And then the blessing after that would be Oko and Aya. It kind of goes together, but it’s the blessing of partnership. Oko meaning husband, loosely, Aya meaning wife. But those terms are actually not really gender specific. The language that is used in Ifá is Yoruba, which comes from the Nigerian-Benin region. And Yoruba is a gender neutral language.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:10:33]:

So Oko and Aya don’t really mean husband and wife. It’s more about the role that you’re playing within the family dynamic. And it’s a lot more complicated if you kind of dive deeply into the, like, the societal structure of the Yoruba people pre-colonially. So that’s the next blessing. And then Omo would be the blessing of children, and then the last blessing, Ìṣẹ́gun, blessing of victory over negative forces. So being able to clear things out of your path that are blocking you from succeeding.

 

Kate Henry [00:11:03]:

I mentioned earlier, like, that your book is so rich because your approach, like, for example, thinking of parenthood or community or things like this, like each of the chapters in your book does such a beautiful job of looking at these different, you know, blessings and approaches in ways that are inclusive, in ways that… not that it would not necessarily be inclusive, like expanding this, like, queering this in some ways, or like looking at examples in like, for example, thinking about like sustainability or food systems. Like looking at real, actual examples of that that exist now. And I’m curious, like, preserving and honoring Black ancestral wisdom is very central to this book and the work that you do. And I think there’s something really magical about this book in the way that you’re blending history, your personal experience. Like your narrative is really key to this text as well.

 

Kate Henry [00:11:59]:

And like, reflections on that. So could you tell me a little bit about how you decided to weave that together and to bring Ifá into, like, 2025? It is such a beautiful, rich text in the way that you’re like, and here is how we can see this through, like, these different real life experiences now. And here’s how we might expand this. But I would love to hear your take on this. I’m just sort of like, wow, this is so cool. This is so exciting. So, like, I’d love to hear about your process and your reflections on that and if that feels true to you, too.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:12:33]:

Yeah, no, I think that was my kind of. My goal with this book is like, I guess I’m trying to step out of viewing time in a way that is so linear and viewing it in a way where it’s, like, layered upon layers. Like, we’re living in the past and the present at the same time. Sometimes it’s hard to access that living. I live in Los Angeles, and it’s a very modern city, but there’s so much rich history in a place like Los Angeles. Right. And I think in other parts of the world, it’s a lot more visible. Like, you can see the old buildings, for example.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:13:05]:

You can go to the museums and see all the artifacts. Like, you’re overlapping with the past, the present, and the future all at the same time. And I think that a lot of times when we talk about Indigenous traditions in general, people tend to think of them as, like, relics of the past, as something that we’ve moved away from. And now we are. We, like, sort of look back to see what people used to do. But Ifá is still practiced today in Nigeria, in Benin, and all of the sort of offshoot child religions are still practiced in the diaspora as well. So people are still very much a part of this tradition. It’s still very much a part of Black life.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:13:40]:

And I think that even if you are someone who doesn’t necessarily practice Ifá, I think that it is part of our culture and experience. I think specifically for Black people, but I think just in general for the people who live, like, in the broader communities with Black people. Because in the chapter Ajé, where I talk about wealth, I talk a lot about food. And food is something that has shaped, obviously, nations. And I think that in the United States, Black food has played a huge role culturally. Like, I think most people are familiar with macaroni and cheese with jambalaya, gumbo. And some of those recipes go all the way back to Nigeria. And some of those ingredients are offerings for the Orishas in Ifá.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:14:23]:

So I wanted to sort of pull all of that together to not only remind myself, but just to remind everyone that these aren’t relics of the past. These are things that people are still doing today. And I think there are things that people are trying to like, incorporate and weave in more like, not even in a way where you have to practice the tradition at all, but to be mindful or cognizant or to think of like, oh, this is a concept in the tradition that really resonates with me. How does that show up for me in my life? And so that’s why I wanted to kind of tie it to real world examples. And I think the chapter that I did that the most, I think was Aiku, specifically talking about longevity. And I tied it to like food sovereignty and urban gardening and just like a food and ecological sustainability systems movement that we see cropping up in a lot of like, Afro-Indigenous spaces across the country and around the world. And trying to also not keep it so US centric as well, and remind people, you know, people are doing this outside of the United States, which is difficult for me, being someone from the United States. But yeah, I think that it was important to me to make sure that this remained relevant.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:15:38]:

Because if I do believe in the concept of Aiku, then Ifá as a tradition should be something that is able to be carried beyond the past. Right. Like, it’s something that should be relevant in the future. And I think that there are so many elements and components of the tradition that just map onto where we’re at currently. Very, very well. I mentioned earlier that Yoruba is a gender neutral language. And when I was first studying Ifá and learning more about the tradition, I was like, that is so wild to me because we’re struggling so much right now to figure out how to use gender neutral language. And this was also five years ago, so it was a little bit more difficult for people.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:16:21]:

But it’s still very much a struggle in the modern era, especially if you don’t speak English. I think if you’re speaking Spanish or French or Portuguese, where it’s really gendered, queer folks who speak those languages are constantly trying to figure out ways to shape it. And so it seems almost very forward thinking that this very ancient language is inherently gender neutral. So I was like, I can’t not sort of queer this narrative. Like, I feel like there’s already like an inherent queerness built into this that I found really beautiful.

 

Kate Henry [00:16:52]:

Yeah, you just shared the example of like the food sovereignty movements that this like, if we’re thinking about, like, viewing time through the layer, like, that is like, okay, this is one thing we’re pointing to contemporarily. I don’t know if that’s a word, but could you give us another example from one of the chapters that is like, another sort of, like, situating or not necessarily, like, it doesn’t need to be, like, queering or like, updating, like, whatever sort of changing, it doesn’t have to be that. But like, another example or two of where you’re situating that in, like, contemporary days or space.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:17:26]:

Yeah, I think that another example would be in the last chapter when I talk about victory over negative forces. I looked at that in a really broad way. Cause I tried to think of negative forces in big and small ways, like, in larger concepts like capitalism and colonialism, and then smaller concepts, like, I want to pass my test and, like, what are people doing to, like, seek victory? And so I initially started talking about, like, slave revolts within the Caribbean and the American South, and specifically how different African traditional religions were used there. And then that kind of drew me then to the Black Panther Party and specifically how they not just, like, politically, but also, like, aesthetically sought ways to resist an oppressive culture. And then I kind of ended that talking specifically about, like, the modern, like, witchcraft movement. It’s specifically as it relates to, like, the Black community. And I think that there are a lot of Black folks right now that are into, like, tarot and astrology and the sort of, like, kitchen witch practice where you’re kind of buying a couple of votive candles or mixing some herbs together. And I think that it’s like a practice that is rooted very much in the modern era.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:18:43]:

A lot of people are connecting to that via the Internet and social media. And that’s how they’re connecting to practitioners. That’s how they’re finding information about it. And I think that it’s also very much rooted in a sense of independence. It’s like taking control over your own life. So you have a set goal and you’re going to take control and harness the full forces to make that possible. I also think it’s like a practice in, like, meditation as well, of being able to ground yourself and focus on a specific goal. And so I think that seeing the, like, kind of rise of, like, witchy TikTok influencers and people on social media really connects to that.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:19:22]:

I guess another example I would use is in the third chapter, I believe I talk about sort of, like, the dance, the queer dance and club scene that was really, really fun. And I, I think if you read the book, it’ll make a lot more sense. But I connect it specifically to spiritual possession in Ifá and then how that kind of is related to ecstatic dance and like a sort of creating an environment where you can use dance, movement and music to release communally. And the ballroom culture that kind of sprang up in the like 80s specifically, and then how that tracks into the modern queer club culture. And I talk about some queer clubs and queer parties that are in LA and New York as well as in Brazil and other parts of Latin America. And I think that the creators of those parties have said really like, what’s the word I’m looking for? But really like prescient quotes where they’re saying like, I’m doing this to connect ancestrally. And I was like, that’s exactly what this is. This is something that we’ve been doing since the beginning of time.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:20:28]:

And I think that a lot of times queer communities are seeking ways to like, release in a way that I feel like is so human and so grounded. And so I was like, how can I not talk about some of my favorite queer parties?

 

Kate Henry [00:20:42]:

Yes, I love how in this book you are honoring the folks that you’re talking about, the scholars who you are engaging with, like the writers and thinkers who you’re engaging with. And also a lot of this book is rooted in your journey, like your experience, your family experience, your family history, your experience with herbalism and becoming a doula and becoming an aborisa. So I’m curious, what was that experience like? Did you know when you started writing this book that you, as the person sharing your stories, was going to be central as a way to telling this story? And what was your experience like with that?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:21:22]:

I did not. That was not my initial plan. I guess going into it I was like, okay, I’m just gonna write. And I, like I said, I. I tend to write in like little essays, little one-offs, and then it kind of blends together. So I had a couple thoughts about this and I had a couple thoughts about that. And like, to kind of help my process, I would write about myself so that I could like at least have a jumping off points. I would be like, okay, well when I was a kid, this is what I was doing.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:21:49]:

And like that kind of helped me organize my thoughts. And then through the like editing and compilation process, it kind of just grew into that where I was like, I think I actually should tie this back to myself because if I’m trying to ground Ifá in, like, a modern context, and I’m trying to ground it in something tangible and real, then I should connect it back to my own experience, because I am part of Black history. My family is part of Black history. And I think that as a kid, I kind of felt separated from that. Like, this is something that I’m reading about or learning about, but, like, my life is somehow different. But I think the more I talk to my parents and my grandparents about, like, their experiences, like, oh, yeah, my grandparents were part of the Great Migration wave. Like, they moved during the same time that a lot of Black folks left the South. Oh, yeah, my family has experienced police violence.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:22:42]:

Like, they have been impacted by that. They’ve been impacted by violence within their communities. Like, it’s not like a separate sort of thing. Especially because my family grew up… originally, my grandparents were in Alabama, Texas, and South Carolina, and then my parents moved to Los Angeles. So even hearing my parents talk about being in Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots, during O.J. Simpson, I’m like, oh, they were here.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:23:05]:

Like, it wasn’t, like, an abstract concept. And so I think that as I was writing, I was like, yeah, I should kind of tie this in a little bit more. And, because I want people to read the book and feel like they can see themselves in it. And so I’m hoping that my own experiences aren’t dissimilar from other people’s. I’m hoping that, like, when I talk about my grandmother, it reminds people of their grandparents. When I talk about my parents, it reminds them of their parents and their relatives. So I’m hoping that people can see themselves through my experience as well.

 

Kate Henry [00:23:38]:

Have you had folks reach out to you and share, like, what your story that you shared felt similar to my story or my experience with this or, like, have you heard from, like, individuals? Or, like, what has been the feedback that you’ve gotten since you published the book? It only recently came out, like, just, like, a few months ago. But, yeah, I’m curious.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:23:57]:

Yeah, I have. I’ve been very pleasantly surprised. It’s been a very surreal moment, I guess. But, yeah, I’ve had people say that this book has been something that they’ve been looking for in general in terms of, like, I think Ifá is not written about that much in the West in general. And so I think people are like, this is exactly the type of book I was looking for. Like, I just wanted someone to explain it to me and explain how it connects to different things. So I’ve gotten that a lot I actually ran into someone at a bookstore who was buying my book, and I was like…

 

Kate Henry [00:24:33]:

Oh, my gosh, how magical.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:24:34]:

Wild. I was like, are you, are you gonna buy that? She’s like, yeah.

 

Kate Henry [00:24:36]:

Were they like, hold on, is this you?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:24:39]:

Like, they said that they were visiting from Louisiana and they were in LA and they were like, I specifically came to LA and I wanted to go to a bookstore, and I was hoping I was gonna find this book here. And I was like, that is so wild. So we had a whole little chat about it. And I’ve met a lot of people who are interested in practicing Ifá, who are practitioners in some capacity, and then people who are just like historians and anthropologists as well, who are like, this is just like a really good book that ties in a lot of different historical movements and connects them in a way that it’s not like it hasn’t. It’s rare to see connected, I guess, that lens. So, yeah, it’s. The reception has been good. I’m like, every time somebody says something, I’m like, oh, my gosh, really?

 

Kate Henry [00:25:24]:

Like, I mean, it’s a good book. The writing that I do, the research I do is like historiographical. And I’m like, so as someone who studies and writes historiography, I was like, so stoked about just like, your methods for this, the style and the way that you honor and bring together different voices and weave that with your own voices and are like, I think you said it really well with, like, thinking about the layering of time through layers. Like, that really comes through in the book. Okay, this fits great for the next question I want to ask you, which is about your process for writing the book. And you said that you’ve, like, done short form writing and things like that. So how did you decide that you wanted to share this via a book manuscript compared to something else, like a podcast or website or, like academic article? And like, of course those are not the only ways we can share and circulate knowledge.

 

Kate Henry [00:26:10]:

But what was the journey for you writing this as the form of a book? And I know folks who are listening are maybe working on books as well, so, like, will be fascinated to hear what the process was for you, writing this and publishing this through a traditional press.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:26:27]:

Yeah, I think deep down I wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to take on the challenge of being like, okay, can I complete a full manuscript? Like, can I actually compile this into, like a full book? And I think it was. It was an intellectual challenge to make sure that I could connect my thoughts together. I feel like my brain looks like that meme of all the little red lines connecting. Yeah, that, like, I’m sure my partner is so sick of me talking about stuff, but I’m like. And this connects to that. He’s like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. So I’m like, okay, I have to sit down and funnel and channel the information that makes sense in my head Into a narrative that is legible to other people.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:27:08]:

And I think what helped me with writing was to write it in small, little chunks. So I would, like, write an essay on a particular thought, and then I would write an essay on another thought, and then I would come back and connect them together with something else. And I kind of had to jump around a little bit. But when I was first thinking about, like, okay, how am I going to shape this book if I want to somehow talk about spirituality? Initially, I was thinking this book was mainly going to focus on just herbalism, Because I was focused on my herbalism practice at the time. And so I was like, okay, well, maybe I’ll just write a whole book about herbalism and how it connects to different practices and cultures and movements. And as I was beginning to write that, I wrote about Aiku and how herbalism ties into Aiku and this idea of longevity and sustainability. And I was like, well, I could probably do the same thing for the other five blessings of Ifá. And then I was like, well, this connects to larger concepts.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:28:01]:

And so it kind of grew from, like, an idea that I think I could have definitely ran with. But this, I was like, there’s so much more that I could talk about. And I think that my brain kind of switches around a lot, too. I’m someone that, like, I can focus on a task, but then I’ll get bored and want to do something else really quickly. And so I think having the different chapters as well, and focusing on different things, Even though it’s the same underlying current, I get to talk about everything I want to talk about. I get to talk about herbalism. I get to talk about queer parties. I get to talk about family.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:28:32]:

I get to talk about witchcraft. Like, I get to, you know, bounce around subjects. And so that was really fun as well. But, yeah, it was definitely something that I just wanted to see if I could challenge myself to do.

 

Kate Henry [00:28:46]:

You did it well, and it sounds like you had fun while doing it. When you wrote the book, did you, like, write, like, a manuscript and, like, a. Like, a book proposal and pitch it to the press, or did they reach out to you first or like. Like, what was the process like for that? I’m working on a book that I would like to pitch to a press. So part of this is, like, what was your… What worked for you? Like, I’m curious.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:29:07]:

Yeah, so they reached out to me because I used to be a little bit more of, like, a digital essayist, so I would write, like, an essay here or there on Instagram or Patreon. And so they reached out to me especially because I was writing a lot about, like, herbalism and different practices at the time. They’re like, is this something that you would want to turn into a book? And I was like, yeah, maybe let me, like, write some stuff down and play around with it. But it was kind of, like an informal, like, approach process. It was like, would you be interested? And then can you send us, like, a pitch? And so then I did have to put together, like, a chapter or two, like, rough draft, and then send that over to them.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:29:46]:

And then it was from there, it kind of just took off, which was really, really great. But the editing process was stressful for me because I’m a procrastinator, and I don’t think that works well. Always winds up putting things together, but I think once I have pressure, then I’m, like, in flow state. So I would kind of have to like, play this game with myself and my editor where I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m going to do this. And then I’m like, okay, Gabrielle, you actually have to sit down and do this, because now you only have X amount of time before the next meeting. So I had to play games to make sure that I was going to complete things the way that I thought worked best for me, I guess. So I need a little bit of that pressure. But, yeah, the process was pretty cool.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:30:26]:

And I think that I have now seen almost every side of the book industry because I’ve done the writing aspect of books. I interned very briefly for Edelweiss, and then I’ve worked at two different bookstores in LA. So I feel like I’ve touched books in all sort of different angles now, which is really cool to be able to say that. And I think it just makes me love reading and writing even more. And deep in the thick of writing, I was like, this is the only book I’m gonna write. Done. That’s it. Don’t ask me.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:31:00]:

And now that it’s out, I’m like, oh, my god, what should I write next? Like, should I write about this? Should I write about that?

 

Kate Henry [00:31:06]:

Please do. Please do write another one. How long was the process, do you feel like, from when you, like, started and then to, like, when you, like, when the book went to press?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:31:16]:

Yeah, I think from the beginning, from, like, the initial conversations to when the book went to press, I want to say I was maybe two and a half years, but I feel like the majority of the writing I did in, like, short spurts of time. And I could probably condense that to maybe like a year, eight months of, like, hard, focused writing. But, yeah, the whole process was like two and a half years. And then I was also surprised at, like, how early you turn the manuscript in and then you edit and then. Then you do the final, final edits and then it goes to, like, all of the design and all, like, so seeing all of that was like, oh, whoa. Like, that’s cool.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:31:55]:

So, like, my friends are like, when’s it coming out? I thought you finished. And I was like, yeah, but there’s all this other stuff that we have to do now before it can come out. So, yeah, it’s cool.

 

Kate Henry [00:32:04]:

Well, it felt excellent and, like, timely when I first read it. I’m thrilled. At the start of the book, you’ve shared that you’re, like, you’ve been interested in technology and science and your whole life, and, like, you have just, like, this interest in learning about the origin of things, which. So it’s not surprising to me then that, like, in addition to being a writer, you’re also a data analyst by trade. As you said, you have done a lot of work in higher education and, like, many various topics, like, what a savant at this different stuff. I guess the question is, like, tell me a little bit about these other studies. And I’m curious about how your work with sciences or with technology, what you do there. And then I’m also curious about what a data analyst does and what you’re doing there.

 

Kate Henry [00:32:48]:

Your website is so cool. I was like, this website is so impressive. So two questions in a trench coat, right? Like, tell me a bit about, like, doing, like, the different sciences and stuff and how that influences. Maybe influences the book or influences the work you do and that. And also, like, what do you do as a data analyst?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:33:07]:

Yeah, so my background is mainly in, like, data and, like, life sciences. So I studied biology, specifically ecology and anthropology when I was an undergrad, and then I have a master’s in public health, and then I have a master’s of business analytics. And so I think ecology is grounded specifically in my interest in plants. Life, herbalism. I’m interested in human biology as well. But yeah, I feel like that was kind of like the foundation of the book was like a basic interest in nature, but specifically like the innerworkings of it, like how different plants and things relate to each other. That’s kind of what drew me into herbalism, was my initial foray into ecology and then anthropology. I had an emphasis on evolutionary anthropology too.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:33:55]:

So kind of like how people have shifted and changed over time. And a lot of that talks specifically around the physiology of human beings, but it also talks about culturally how people have shifted and changed over time too. And so that kind of ties into this book because I’m like, okay, you take this culture from West Africa and then you kind of spread it throughout the Americas and it mixes with all of these other elements, like, what does it look like now? What’s recognizable, what’s different? So that was like, of interest to me. And then public health is just a general, like, important, like societal good, I feel like. And public health, I think a lot of times people tend to think of that as like, like healthcare specifically, but it’s beyond healthcare. It’s also like green space and community care and like all these other sort of like, for lack of a better word, like non-medical interventions. And so I think that spirituality and having like mindfulness and other sort of practices like that ties really well into public health.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:34:56]:

And during my master’s program, I tended to drift towards more classes that focused on mental health and health and communities of color. I took a really, really interesting class that was about the way that mental health, like mental illnesses showed up differently in communities of color and how different people would present different things differently based on their cultures. And so practitioners might not pick up on like a Black woman who thinks she’s depressed because she might not have the same traditional symptoms of that. And so I tend to gravitate towards the kind of the softer public health elements. And then I kind of pivoted a bit into data analytics. And I do a lot of coding for that specifically. So I’m like typing on the computer. But data analytics is all about pattern recognition.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:35:46]:

And I think that is how that kind of ties into this book specifically is I’m recognizing different patterns that are showing up across cultures and across time. But specifically what I do is I take large data sets or data sets from different organizations that want us to figure out basically, like, what story can they tell. I work a lot with nonprofits that are trying to analyze their data for grants, for example. So they’re like, what story can we tell from all of this program data that we had? So I can kind of crunch the numbers, essentially, and I could be like, well, these are the clients that you reached, and this is where they were geographically. Like, I do a lot of, like, geographic mapping and stuff, so I can see where different populations of people are, and I can overlay that, like, census data and be like, yeah, you said that you sought to serve these communities and you were in these areas, and so you successfully did that. So it helps people get, like, kind of like, temperature check. Like, am I doing what I’m setting out to do? And then can I sort of take this information and then, you know, use it for another grant proposal in the future to say, like, this is the work that I’m doing and this is the data behind it.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:36:51]:

So, yeah, it’s a lot of pattern recognition, but, yeah, mainly I’m coding all day, essentially, and combing through spreadsheets. But coding is the best part of it to me. And it’s like solving a puzzle. Like, you’re testing something out, and then you get, like, an error that the code doesn’t work, and then you have to go back. It’s a lot of, like, logic games, and you’re, it’s like learning another language because you’re using this weird way of talking to the computer where you’re like, if this happens, then do this, else, do that.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:37:25]:

And so when it breaks, you have to go back and figure out, did I need to do this before that? It’s. It’s really like, puzzle games, what you’re doing basically all day. So I like doing that. I feel like I need a job that is, like, different every day or, like, keeps me on my toes in some way. So, like, I really enjoyed working at bookstores because every day you’re interacting with different people. And I think that’s why I like doing data analytics, because every day it’s, like, a slightly different problem, and you have to look at it from a different angle.

 

Kate Henry [00:37:55]:

That’s so fun. The only math class I took in college was Intro to Logic. Like, my senior year, I took, like, maybe my last semester, I took Intro to Logic with, like, all the freshmen. And it was so cool. It was so satisfying. And, like, I often think of writing, like, the way I write is almost like a logic problem. Like, if this, then that.

 

Kate Henry [00:38:15]:

That’s, like, usually I approach writing where, like, I have a full concept map with all these arrows showing in connections. And then when it comes time to actually, like, write the prose, I’m like, well, it’s all there. Like, why do I have to write? Like, just read my outline, everything is there. And, like, the if this, then that, except in case of X, you know? Like, do you feel that way about writing at all as well? Like, I often think of writing as, like, a logic puzzle.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:38:39]:

No, it definitely is, because it’s like you’re trying to… you have to make sure that what you’re saying is really clear. You’re trying to distill the information in your head and translate it in a way that is the most accessible to the largest amount of people. And that’s really hard. I think that sometimes people will write in a way that is not accessible to people, and it makes sense. But it’s like, I’m… I want to make sure that when I’m writing, I’m trying to be like, okay, is this clear? And, like, especially with Ifá and this book specifically, like, I think that because I was so immersed in it, I was like, well, yeah, this makes perfect sense. Like, of course this is this, and that is that.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:39:18]:

And of course, Oshun wouldn’t do this, and of course Shango wouldn’t do that. But I’m like, nobody else… I have to come at it from the perspective, like, nobody else knows what I’m talking about. So I need to make sure that as I’m drawing these connections, it makes sense. It’s. Especially if I’m making really large leaps where I’m talking about a specific concept in Ifá, and then I’m connecting it to, like, the Black Panther Party, or I’m connecting it to queer parties. How did you get from here to here? And so I think my editor helped me a lot with that, because in my head, I’m like, obviously, it’s all connected, but it’s like, how do I lead people down this, like, logical pathway in a way that’s easy to understand?

 

Kate Henry [00:39:58]:

Yeah, easy to understand. And also, like, interesting and fun and satisfying to read as well, which I think is a success of your book. This makes me think of another question I want to ask. Who do you feel is, like, your intended audience for this book? Like, I’m thinking about, how do you have the scaffolding to get folks to understand some of these examples you’re talking about? Right. I think you communicate well in the book. Like, here. This is the intended audience. Right.

 

Kate Henry [00:40:24]:

But, like, tell me a bit more about that and how that informed your writing process.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:40:28]:

Yeah. I think that there’s. I thought of it as, like, several audiences. I thought, like, okay, this is a book in general for Black people that have an interest in learning about, like, Black African diasporic history, that have an interest in learning specifically about African spirituality. Like, that’s kind of like, maybe like, the obvious audience for this book. But I wanted this book to reach much broader audiences than that. And I also wanted to kind of serve as a way to destigmatize African traditional religion. So I was like, okay, I want this book to be for anyone who’s interested in spirituality and different practices.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:41:07]:

I want it to be for anyone who’s interested in history, anthropology, culture, just broadly. And so I had to make sure that the book was, like, legible to people outside of, like, a very specific bubble, because the group of people that are interested in African spirituality is not necessarily large, like, from a practitioner perspective. Right. But I was really inspired by the book Braiding Sweetgrass. I think that book is one of the books that I think is one of the most formative reads I’ve had in my life. And I think that Robin Wall Kimmerer did an amazing job of taking something that is very culturally specific and making it legible to a large audience of people. And so I think her approach was like, I’m writing a book that for anyone who’s interested in ecology, anyone who’s interested in learning more about Indigenous history would find interest in this book.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:42:00]:

And that’s kind of what I was thinking as well. I was like, anyone who’s interested in history, culture, anthropology, or spirituality hopefully will find something in this book that is intriguing to them. And I think that as I had people read it, I kind of shopped it around to, like, different friends and different colleagues who come from very different backgrounds and perspectives that, like, maybe they could speak a little bit more to, like, the Aiku chapter and maybe a little bit more to the Omo chapter. And I wanted to see, like, how they felt about it as well. Like, oh, yeah, this is something that, like, this is new information to me, and it’s interesting information.

 

Kate Henry [00:42:34]:

So, yeah, it’s so fun talking to you about the book and not just about, like, your practices as your, like, as an individual and then, like, your process for writing the book. But I’ll start to close this up today, and when you write your second book, I’ll have you back on to talk about your second book. And I want to. I love to close out the podcast by asking folks to share one thing that they’re honing in on right now. So I’m curious, what are you trying to hone in on?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:43:03]:

Yeah, this is… I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and I think it’s a good question to ask right now, too, because it’s like the beginning of the calendar year. And so I’m thinking, I’m trying to hone in on… it’s kind of like dual concepts of, like, discipline, but also, like, freedom at the same time. And I don’t think that they’re mutually exclusive, but I want to be, I guess, disciplined in all of my creative practices. And I think that when I was writing this book, I had to kind of learn to trust myself. I think writing is a really vulnerable process.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:43:40]:

And I think that because I was learning to trust myself, I wasn’t always the most disciplined. And so I’m like, I need to honor myself and honor the fact that I am a creative person. I have interesting things to say. I have interesting things that I want to create. And so if I’m going to truly believe and honor that, then I need to show up for myself consistently. And so that’s kind of what I’m thinking about, is like, discipline, but also like freedom. Like, freedom to fail, freedom to explore, freedom to try new things.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:44:10]:

I think that sometimes, like, again with related to the trusting yourself, you can easily box yourself in and be like, these are the things that I’m good at. I’m just gonna stick to these things. But I’m trying to challenge myself to try something else and to be okay if things don’t turn out exactly the way that I wanted to. And I think my ceramics practice has helped a lot with being more comfortable with failure. But those are the two sort of ideas, I guess, that I’m focusing on honing in right now.

 

Kate Henry [00:44:36]:

I love that. And I imagine that, like, the discipline provides the container for the freedom. Right? Like that, you know, not that it has to be like one equals the other or something like that, but that those feel really lovely together. Could you tell us a little bit around, is there anything coming up for you or are there places, like, in addition to buying your book, which everyone should do, where can folks follow you or check out your work or stay up to date on what you’re doing?

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:45:01]:

Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram. My Instagram is @gfxprints. Any sort of, like, events or things like that will be posted on there as well. But, yeah, that’s kind of the only social media I have right now. Which is I’m trying to be as Internet free as I can in our very Internet age. But. Yeah. And then you can find me in Los Angeles.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:45:27]:

I’m gonna do a lot of events probably here locally as well. But if anybody would like me to come out for an event, by all means, feel free to reach out to me.

 

Kate Henry [00:45:36]:

Yes, please. Well, this has been a real treat. I feel energized, excited. I hope lots of folks will check out the book. So thanks for taking time today with me.

 

Gabrielle Felder [00:45:46]:

Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

 

Kate Henry [00:45:50]:

Thanks so much for joining me. You can learn more about honing in and my work as a productivity coach on my website, KateHenry.com. Take good care.