Kate Henry [00:00:00]:

Welcome to Honing in a podcast for creative thinkers, where we’ll hone our skills, explore our passions, and nurture our dream projects into being. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Honing In. I always say this, but I’m really excited to interview my guest today. When I started the podcast, she was on my list of potential guests who I wanted to have, so this is really a treat.

 

Today I am interviewing Michelle Pellizzon, who is a writer, a researcher, an intuitive business advisor, and her work spans mediums. It really does so podcasting, publishing, teaching, and often explores the liminal space between mysticism and pragmatism. A former professional modern dancer and Feldenkrais practitioner with a background in tech, she blends somatic expertise with creative entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship, and all of those things feel so true based on everything I know about you.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:04]:

So, thanks for taking time to chat with me.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:01:06]:

I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:09]:

No, my pleasure, of course. And I was telling you this before we recorded, but I was really excited to chat with you because I feel like you’re one of the people, you know, in my orbit who is not just doing work projects. Like, you’re doing personal projects, creative projects, crafting projects. We’re going to delve into work, but we’re also going to delve into that fun stuff.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:01:29]:

Truly can’t wait. These are all my favorite things to talk about. Obviously. So happy to get to gab with someone about it.

 

Kate Henry [00:01:34]:

You know, I always like to open up by asking people how they feel about project, like, quote unquote capital P project. Some people like, like containers or, you know, like a different kind of framework that feels supportive for them. So, as I said, I’ll talk to you about your work and your personal and creative projects, but I just am curious how you feel about the idea of a project. And is there something else that feels more inspiring for you or does project feel good?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:02:02]:

I think project feels good for me. I mean, I don’t know. Maybe that’ll change soon. I’m definitely prone to changing my mind. You know, a couple years ago, I accidentally, off the cuff, described myself as someone with a squiggly brain. And it kind of took off with some of our listeners. And then we started kind of using it more often because it felt like a good way to maybe encapsulate people who maybe don’t consider themselves to be neurodivergent, but, like, probably are. And now I like it.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:02:28]:

Like, gives me the heebie jeebies. I can’t even say it because I Just, it just got kind of co-opted by other people and I’m like, ooh, I don’t know if I want to use that term anymore, but right now project sounds good to me. And as you were reading out my, my bio, I was like, I did do that. I did. I sometimes, you know, I’ve had a weird life and sometimes when someone reads back to me, even when I’ve written what my bio is, like, what I’ve done, I’m like, that’s kind of crazy that you did all that stuff, but made me think that, you know, as a modern dancer, which was my first career and what I wanted to do from like the age of whatever 2 to 25, you don’t really like dance with a company full time that just doesn’t really exist anymore. And it certainly didn’t when I graduated from school. So, you’re always working on projects. You have multiple companies.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:03:13]:

Maybe you’re people that you’re freelancing with or people that you’re co creating with. And so, you’ve kind of. And maybe that was something I actually didn’t like about being an artist in my, you know, earlier in my career, but now I’m like, oh yeah, everything you love comes back to you. Now I’m back on that. Like, yeah, I like that idea of maybe I work on a project for a couple years and then maybe I leave it and it kind of falls under my umbrella of my life and my life’s work and gives me some freedom and flexibility. And also like, I like that project doesn’t feel that serious, feels like a work in progress.

 

Kate Henry [00:03:47]:

This is more of just like a creative kind of esoteric question. But are there other just like words that you like when you’re thinking about your like projects or creating or things.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:03:56]:

Like that kind of makes me think of like artists periods where they’re working on sort of like, yeah, they’re working with an idea or experimenting with an idea for X period of time. Like Picasso’s Blue period. Right? Or yeah. How we maybe like even when we’re archiving and sort of tracing back an artist influences, we give them a period or like a Taylor Swift era. I think I probably prefer period or like season. But yeah, I don’t know, I’m open. I think it also kind of depends on whatever it is that you’re working on because maybe like multiple projects can fall into a period, you know, or a season, depending on what you’re like the ball that you’re trying to move forward, you know.

 

Kate Henry [00:04:35]:

Yeah. Ah, I Love words. This is excellent. I do. It’s just. It’s so fun. It’s. I love.

 

Kate Henry [00:04:42]:

I also love, like, Venn diagrams, the magic that happens in a Venn diagram, which I feel like you would appreciate. Like, ooh, what new thing do we get? Like, my whole wedding vows were like, Venn diagram, you’re this and I’m this. And then the overlap is our life together. Do you know what I mean? But, like, this leads me into my second question I wanted to ask you, which is, like, something that just shines through in the work that you do as a teacher and in your writing and in the podcast, is have a real visceral curiosity that is contagious. And, like, I can tell that there’s a lot of, like, labor that you’re putting in behind the scenes into, like, learning and reading and researching and stuff, but then also, like, communicating that to your audience and then teaching other folks what you’re reading. So I’m curious, like, when it comes to what you’re sharing, like, these lessons and things that you’re learning and your curiosity, like, how has that shifted over time in your work?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:05:36]:

I’m just a nosy bitch, you know? Like, I always want to know when I. When I take in something, right? Like, a finished piece, I want to. I’m like, how did you get to that? How did that become that? Like, most recently, the one that I’m. I’m dying to get, the process that I’m dying to get is Mona Awad’s book Bunny. Did you read that book?

 

Kate Henry [00:05:54]:

I am obsessed. I’m, like, signed up to go see her when she comes to Boston to read for the second one.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:06:00]:

I’m so jealous because I’m like, what were you do. What was funneling into your brain while you were writing? I want to know everything. I want to know coffee order. I want to know what TV you were watching. I want to know the conversations you were having with your friends. Like, I don’t just want to know the direct influences on your work. I want to know the atmospheric unconscious sort of like, yeah, impressions that made this thing that alchemized this unique thing that could only be made in this time and space. So I think I’ve just always.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:06:30]:

That’s kind. I’m just nosy. Like, I want to know everything. I want to know everything. And sometimes it’s not that interesting, but I think more often than not, it’s, like, incredibly interesting. And maybe that’s also why I really like meaning making systems like astrology and human design. Because it kind of feels like, oh, yeah, this is a unique set of variables that makes you personally. I’m talking to you, and maybe contributes to the way that you think.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:06:51]:

So I’m just personally so curious about how did this person get to this idea, Even if maybe the thing that influenced them was, like, their seventh grade history teacher. I want to know that. So I guess it’s kind of selfish. Selfishly, I’m interested in that stuff. And when I first started the North Node, I used to do a reading list every single month of, like, all these books that I think are worth looking at or reading or just considering. And it kind of got to be, like, really intense because I noticed. And I’d love to hear your process, too. I’ll go deep for a couple months, and then I kind of need.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:07:24]:

I need, like, a refractory period where I can just kind of like, think and process and go on walks and like, maybe just watch Bravo, you know, and like, let my brain cook a little bit and then some ideas sort of like begin to bloom. So to kind of expect myself to, like, read at that same clip or research or whatever is challenging and becomes, like, ultimately almost too much information, I think, for a lot of people. So, yeah, this new. I pulled back a lot from sharing some of my influences. And recently on the sub stack, we’ve been sharing sort of like a curriculum or a syllabus of, like, influences and references that might be interesting to you that also influenced the way that we’re thinking about a thing. So, yeah, I mean, so far it’s working okay. I feel like it’s working pretty well, but I honestly have no idea how many people are reading all the things that we put on there. It’s a lot.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:08:12]:

It would be like, too much. I think it’s more like, you know, it’s a buffet. You can pick and choose the things that you’re interested and excited in. I think we call them conceptual doorknobs. So you can kind of like turn the doorknob if you so choose, but you don’t have to. To go a little bit deeper. But I don’t know, what about you? Are you, like a constant learner where you, like, really process? Sort of like you need input you can digest in two to three business days, and then you can sort of like, put it out because you have your PhD. So I know, like, that’s extremely research heavy.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:08:43]:

Or are you kind of a like, more of a seasonal, even like school season type of person?

 

Kate Henry [00:08:48]:

It’s interesting for me because I did a PhD in rhetoric and composition, but I should have been in a history program. Like, I just study the same woman. Like, I’ve been studying this woman for 10 years. She wrote the first lesbian magazine in the US and just did really lots of cool, radical stuff in the 40s and 50s. She was a Scorpio. And I know. I’m like, hey, because you’re a Scorpio, right?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:09:12]:

No, I wish. I mean, thank you.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:13]:

What?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:09:14]:

Highest compliment to assume that I’m a Scorpio. I’m a Scorpio moon. So, like, I do give the intensity of a Scorpio. And I’m. I’m a certified hater. So, you know, like, that’s part of it.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:24]:

1. I love it. What’s your sun sign?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:09:26]:

I’m a Pisces.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:28]:

Oh, that’s beautiful. Sweet baby angel.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:09:32]:

I’m an anima. Cancer rising. So I’m a triple water.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:34]:

I mean, I’m a triple air. I’m. I’m Libra Gemini. Libra.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:09:38]:

So I’m like, you’re all brains. You’re all. You’re all thinking.

 

Kate Henry [00:09:43]:

I am. I’m like, a little. I could just talk forever, but so I, like, in academia, I spent, like, forever just researching this one single woman and this one single time period. And I, like, when I was done with academia, I left. I’m. No. I, like, work with academics, but I’m not publishing in academia. And it’s been so hard to unlearn and detach myself from, like, the academic impetus to, like, absorb and then regurgitate and then turn it in and then get your, like, exchange value for it, you know? So it’s been really hard to, like, detach from, like, well, what is my grade or my publication or my, like, you know, just desserts I’m gonna get for doing this.

 

Kate Henry [00:10:24]:

But it is much more fun now to just sort of be like, I can do whatever I want. I can, like, make a website. I like, you know, be playful and. But I am someone who likes to like. I like. I like writing a newsletter because. Or doing a podcast because I’m like, oh, I can do a little bit and then learn a little. Do it.

 

Kate Henry [00:10:43]:

Learn a little, do it. And it’s just small bites. But I also kind of like being like, well, this is my life’s work to just study this one woman and, like, write about her. Like, that feels good to me to just be like, this is this one thing I want to do. But it has been wicked hard, and I still struggle with, like, detaching from writing for Academia, it’s just like a particular thing to me that is like I don’t want my audience right now to necessarily be academics. And so I don’t want to necessarily have to do jargon or prove myself with some sort of gatekeeped moves or something.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:11:19]:

You know, like writing an academic publication involves a research agenda, right? And that’s fun, you know, like researching an idea or someone you admire or a movement or whatever. Or even like reading a book and then writing your thoughts down about it or doing a meta analysis of a bunch of whatever is out there on a particular concept is like so interesting. But it’s pretty limiting to only be able to sort of like publish those ideas from your research agenda in a paper versus yeah, like making a website or like I don’t know, a one woman show. And I think that’s something that when I talk about like having building projects or building a research agenda, like I really try to hammer that home for people of like, you know, a project is basically just the culmination a lot of the time of like a bunch of research that you’re already doing. And it just like aggregates, it puts it all in one spot so that you can really have the time to maybe like digest what you’re learning and thinking about as opposed to always doing sort of like passive research where you’re scrolling around on the Internet. And that’s cool too, that can be totally satisfying. But I find a lot of the time it’s not, it’s not satisfying. And the sort of like metabolization of ideas and coming up with your own ideas and executing on them is I think ultimately like what really drives a lot of people and their progression of like selfhood and ideas.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:12:44]:

And we don’t get a lot of that like outside of school, although I think we do get that a lot in the self care and the wellness industry. But it becomes very solipsistic because we become our subject that we’re researching, which is fine, but like maybe we should research other things too, you know, like in addition to just like being curious about ourselves as you were talking about.

 

Kate Henry [00:13:03]:

That too, like thinking about this like metabolizing or like gathering or you know, like processing through stuff. It makes me think about like the awesome resources that you have like the North Node and also through holisticism, your free offering. Like there’s also like just so many phenomenal things that are there that I know you’ve been developing over quite a long time. And so there’s this library of things we can engage with so I’m curious, could you tell us a bit about how have you like honed your approach to this? Were you like, I want to create this thing to help people, you know, or like how have you like sort of decided how to like develop and grow these offerings and also like what goes in holisticism, what goes in North Node, what goes on the pod? Like I’m just curious about the history of holisticism, I guess. Yeah.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:13:50]:

Because there’s like a lot of folders that things could be filed away inside of. And I think that was maybe one of my like problems when I started holisticism was I wanted everything that I was interested to fit into holisticism. So I would sort of like contort an idea to be like, okay, this will fit into the holisticism box. And when I first started holisticism, I came up with this name to describe like what I believe in, which is basically like living a holistic life from like every perspective. Right? From like the way that I interact with technology, to the way that I do my business, the way I do relationships, to the way I think about spirituality. Right. Like that. It’s just, it all contributes to each other.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:14:30]:

And I don’t know, I’d been working in tech and just wanted to start a newsletter based on what I’d been finding, what I’d known and researched and whatever my own experiences in the sort of spiritual world. Because I kept running into people who would ask me those types of questions, who would find out at the startup that I worked at that I was into astrology. And then they’d corner me in the kitchen and be like, so what do you know about this? Well, I’m not an expert but you should go talk to this person or you should go read this or like these are the books. Curating resources, curating ideas for people, places to start. So that was kind of how holisticism started is just a newsletter. I was curating those types of ideas and also sort of, I had experience in business and startups and so it’s kind of like experimenting with, here’s how I think it works best. And then it eventually grew to helping wellness practitioners run their businesses. I built technology to help basically like I built a platform to do the end to end business services for wellness practitioners.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:15:30]:

From finding clients to booking them to scheduling them to doing follow ups all in one platform. Because there wasn’t anything like that in 2016. And went through the fundraise process and raised some money and then gave it back because I really didn’t Want to build what all these investors wanted me to build. I wanted to have the freedom to do my own thing. So then holisticism really began to shape up into what it is today, which is this set of resources and ideas and community for people who want to live a more intuitive and creative life through their vocation and also their like capital W work. Right. They’re like sacred work. So it’s evolved over time.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:16:18]:

It wasn’t sort of like set in stone. And when I first started, I think it was a lot more business oriented. Like, here’s how you set up an LLC without wanting to die. Because a lot of what I was doing was translating the business y stuff for people who are really spiritual and like, completely avoidant of the business world. And now we have, like, collectively have much more fluency, I think, in business, which is awesome. It’s great. So the needs have changed and so have I. I’m not just a business person.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:16:47]:

So. Yeah, long answer is or short answer is it’s changed a lot over time. And now when I think about holisticism and whether something works in holisticism, I’m kind of my north star is, does this help from the holisticism perspective? Does this help people who are intuitive, living intuitive and creative lives, and also who are thoughtful people who are perhaps like, optimistically skeptic, skeptical, does this help them live in alignment with their values and choose their life, choose their work, and choose their vocation as thoughtfully as they can? So that’s kind of how I think about holisticism.

 

Kate Henry [00:17:26]:

I think I didn’t realize quite how long ago you started. I know it’s been a while, you know, but like, I can’t do math. That’s either nine or 11 years.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:17:34]:

It’s nine years. Yeah, it’s nine. It’s like coming up on nine years and really in earnest. Probably started in 2017. Like, really started the newsletter. But it’s been such a process and it’s changed so much. And I honestly, like, never thought I would do it for longer than five years. I used to say, like, probably do this for five years and then leave or like quit or do something else, you know, or try to sell it or something like that and kind of just like, along for the ride and trying to listen to what holisticism wants to be, because I kind of think projects have their own sort of soul and their own little destiny and they pick us to kind of come through and be their shepherd sort of big magic style.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:18:13]:

And yeah, it keeps talking to me and people keep Knocking on the doors. So I’m still in it. And, yeah, who knows where it will be in the future, who might take it over in the future? But I think right now we’re on a. We’re on a good path. I really like the direction that we’re moving in.

 

Kate Henry [00:18:30]:

Yeah. Ugh. I really encourage everyone to check out Holistic System because it’s like a. Just like a beautiful website, you know, like, it’s. I was re looking at it and I was like, the color scheme is amazing. Your vibes are amazing. I, like, clicked on the little emoji bar at the bottom and it brought up this, like, very cool, like, hand. Like, what’s it called?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:18:49]:

The Hand of Knowledge. Yeah.

 

Kate Henry [00:18:50]:

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a little treat down there. But let’s shift and think about the North Node, which I’m a member of the North Node. I’m, like, so stoked. I remember being on the wait list and then getting in. And again, this is a place where I feel like you really show up and teach excellent, really accessible, applicable content when I attend events and things like that. And also, you’re really engaged.

 

Kate Henry [00:19:19]:

You don’t feel like you’re just some like, hey, this is a webinar. I don’t care or know you remember people. So it’s very sweet, like, if you are very good at facilitating that community. So another thing I really like about the North Node is, like, you’ve decided right now to, like, you know, have like, a particular topic per quarter, which feels good to me because I’m like, this is like, long enough term that I can, like, stay focused and set a goal and. And focus on that. But it’s like, not so long that I’m like, yeah, whatever. Time is arbitrary. This is what I’m doing in 2025.

 

Kate Henry [00:19:51]:

Right. So you just did a great job of telling us about holisticism. So could you narrow in the focus and tell us a bit about the North Node and your journey with that?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:20:00]:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. The North Node was kind of like, you know, I’d started making these courses that were like a month or six weeks or eight weeks. And they were great. They were great. And I still like teaching that way. But I noticed that they were, you know, you’re limited on what you’re teaching. And also, we’ll talk about in a second pedagogically, like, it’s not the best way to get people through information to, like, set them up for success.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:20:26]:

And people really needed help with implementation is the big thing that I noticed, like, So I think that’s our number one sort of like problem or issue that are the people that work with us. Why they come to us is because they’re, they’re really good at researching, they’re good at learning what they’re supposed to do, but they’re maybe not so good at actually doing it or like applying it, seeing how it applies to them. So that implementation piece was really important, and I wanted to build something that could help my people implement what we just spent six weeks going through together or learning. So the North Node kind of came out of that idea of like, okay, well what would implementation look like, and support look like in a really accessible like container that’s not so, so, so, so exorbitantly expensive. That also feels like it’s not demanding, like so demanding of your time and your attention and your energy. Something that feels like it’s here when you need it and when you really need a lifeline, it’s definitely there. Or you can drop in and use it as a library or you can just be a member and know like, if I ever need something, I’ll go search for it in the North Node and see if it exists. And then hopefully you’re also kind of like checking in on a regular basis.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:21:37]:

And the content that we’re putting out on a regular basis applies at some point to the place that you’re in, in your business or where you want to be in your life and your business. So initially it’s gone through again. Also it’s been around for five years. Lots of iterations and different cadences. Originally it was every month we’d do a different focus and that just was so fast, you know, like it’s a lot, it’s a lot to ask of people, I think. Demand of people. Our attention is everywhere and like, I don’t know, you have a life, I have a life. Like I’m not, I’m a member of multiple memberships and like I don’t want to go to every event.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:22:13]:

I don’t even want to go every month. You know, Like I just, sometimes I want to be engaged and sometimes I don’t. And I felt like probably North Node members feel that way too. So again, going back to like pedagogic perspective. In 2021 I taught a class called Notion for Magical Baddies. And it was initially about systems and building systems. And I taught it live. And the reason I taught it live is because it was for people who are squiggly brained.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:22:44]:

As we said before, we don’t use that term as much anymore. But they had a problem with implementation. They’d downloaded Notion, they downloaded all the templates. They knew what to do, but they didn’t exactly know how to do it. They didn’t have accountability. So I taught this class live and we had like a 95% completion rate. You know, people showed up every single time. And they did a.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:23:04]:

We had a final project where if you completed the project, you got 50 bucks back from your tuition. So they got a reward for finishing and, you know, putting something out, implementing what they learned. And it was so successful that I was like, okay, there’s something about this that works really well. How can I help apply that to the North Node so that we are just helping people get the most bang for their buck without being like, paternalistic, without telling them how to engage with it and interact with it but just giving them options. So that kind of led to the, I guess, quarter system where we focus for three months on an idea. And another sort of like worry in the back of my mind was like, well, what if, you know, what if someone joins and for a month they. They don’t care about the content or like, they don’t feel like it’s applicable to them or they’re worried that it’s not gonna be applicable to them. I wanted to have like a deep enough library where you could tune out if you felt like the live content didn’t apply to you, or you could maybe see how that live content could be applied to what you were focused on, even if it wasn’t so specific.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:24:07]:

So anyways, that’s how the three-month semester quarter came about. The first month is about big learning. So it’s when we have our live course over three or four days, depending on what the concept is. And then usually some sort of like additional appendix live workshops that people may or may drop, may not drop into, depending on if they’re relevant. Then we have our second month, which is kind of like, okay, time for questions in case you weren’t able to join us live, you just watched the replay or you’re kind of in binge mode, or you’ve been tuned out for the last month. No biggie. Come with your questions and let’s workshop them. So we do office hours called uncrossing calls.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:24:43]:

And then the last month is about action and implementation where we take sort of everything that we’ve learned, and we apply it in a challenge and that’s done over. It depends. Three days, five days, 15 days, sometimes 28 days, where everyone’s kind of Doing it together in solidarity. And all of this is recorded. So if people want to do it at their own speed or go back and review it when it feels more relevant to them, they can. But, yeah, we’ve been doing it that way for probably, like, the last two and a half years, and I think it works really well. And it also gives me a little bit more wiggle room to see, like, what falls under the umbrella of this concept or this idea. So, yeah, that’s kind of.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:25:20]:

That’s kind of how it. It came to be. It was really, like, inspired by how can we set our users up for success when you have all these different learning styles and people, like, engaging with the product in really different ways.

 

Kate Henry [00:25:31]:

Thank you for breaking that all down. I really do appreciate the, like, personal intention that you bring to the work that you do. Like, I know, like, you have personal meetings with folks who are in the North Node to be like, hey, what are you working on this quarter? Right? Like, you know, like. Like, there is, like. And you, like, intentionally have a cap number of folks that you have in the North Node. Like, you utilize a wait list. Like, it is very, like. Like, I.

 

Kate Henry [00:25:55]:

I’m also in multiple, like, online communities, right? And there’s, like, some that I’m in that I’m like, I’m there all the time. And there’s some that I’m like, I just joined this because I wanted that resource or whatever, you know, like, and, like, it just like, those are, like, I’m in some communities that have, like, so many people that it just. I’m like, is this, like, good for you making a ton of money off of this person who runs it? But it’s not the same thing as, like, an intimate experience that I feel like I can get with the North Node.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:26:20]:

Thank you for saying that. And I think, like, you know, there’s like, an application for all types, right? You know, like, there are memberships where I’m like, I kind of don’t want to talk to you guys, but I really like this resource, you know, like. Or I really like having access to this in case I need it, or even, like, you know, copywriting communities that I’m a part of, where I’m like, I actually, like, kind of fundamentally disagree with that approach, but there’s still some value here for me in being in this, like, kind of being able to tap into this conversation. And, yeah, there’s also a season for everything. And something that we look at for success from the business side is, what’s our churn rate on Our users. So when are people leaving the North Node? And how long is the sort of lifetime experience of someone who becomes a North Node member? And we found that the average lifetime user now we’ve been around for five years, is three years, which is a really long time on the Internet. Like, a really long time. And her churn rate is super low, which is so, like, amazing.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:27:18]:

And I’m really grateful for. And I think hopefully that speaks to, like, us doing an okay job of, you know, giving people value. And also, we’re talking to the right people because it’s not for everyone. And, like, that’s okay, too. And that’s a big part of. Often, like, when I’m selling the North Node or talking about the North Node, I feel like. Like, I’m kind of, like, the worst salesman. Because, like, I will talk you out of it.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:27:41]:

You know, I’ll talk, like, if someone asks me, because I. I do in my sales emails, I’m like, just email me if you’re, like, not sure if this is right for you. If I don’t think it’s right for you, I’m gonna say, like, I don’t think you should join. You can just do this instead. Or, like, I don’t know, let me just. Let’s just talk for 30 minutes. That might be all the help that you need. And, like, maybe you’re good to go.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:27:58]:

So I think. I think there are. Those are some of the reasons that people stick around for so long, but not everything has to be like that. You know, that’s just like our value metric. But there are tons of communities that are purely based on growth, right? Where they’re all that. They’re focused. They’re not focused on retention. They’re focused on bringing in new users every month or every quarter or every year, right? Because they know their churn rate’s gonna be pretty high.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:28:21]:

And like, that’s just the life cycle or the style of the business. And, like, that’s totally fine. But I think it does kind of changes the KPIs, right? It changes, like, what you’re measuring and how you end up setting up systems or whatever, a structure to reflect what you value.

 

Kate Henry [00:28:37]:

It’s fun to hear you talk about this from, like, the facilitating, creating, seeing behind the scenes, you know, like your work. And then also, like, my perspective is like, the user perspective where I’m like, I feel cared about. This is fun and easy to navigate. Michelle’s really funny. This is effective. And you’re like, let me tell you, like, this is how it’s effective. I can see that. You know, so, Nutri, good job.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:29:03]:

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. And, like, the on, you know, onboarding is a huge part of what sets people up for success, too, because people often leave things because they’re overwhelmed, not because they don’t like what they’re taking part in. Right. It’s because they’re like, ugh, I can’t figure out how to, like, log in, so I can’t use the content. So that’s something that we really had to troubleshoot over the last couple years, too. Of, like, okay, how can we make this easy for everyone? As easy as we can.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:29:28]:

And the onboarding is a big part of.

 

Kate Henry [00:29:33]:

All right, well, we just talked about work for quite a little while, which was fine because I’m fascinated with work and with projects. But as I said when I was introducing you, you are doing lots of non-work projects. And I’m excited to hear about that because you talk on 12th House about the projects that you’re creating and hobbies and crafts. So whether it’s cheese making or sewing your own clothes, creating a wardrobe, which either one could, like, such a big commitment and learning curve, you know, especially to have, like, these aren’t just, like, I don’t know, I’m gonna, like, practice, like, painting. You’re like, I’m gonna make cheese that has to be good enough to, like.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:30:14]:

Want to eat and, like, not poison someone with botulism, which is very stressful. Yeah.

 

Kate Henry [00:30:19]:

Or like, I want to make clothes that, like, are, like, aren’t gonna fall apart. Or, like, you know, like.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:30:24]:

Well, they still kind of do, but, you know, that’s okay. I know how to mend them. It’s all right.

 

Kate Henry [00:30:28]:

Yeah. So you can just, like, play. So, like, I would love to hear you talk about these crafts and hobbies and, like, how they fit into your life, but also, like, you practice and are in. In, like, the. The practice of learning more about, like, more complex, like, things that I think would, like, go beyond just, like, a hobby. Like, you know, like Matrix of Destiny or Feldenkrais or, like, mediumship, like, other things that are, like, quite big commitments. So, like, when I was thinking of questions for you, I was like, oh, this isn’t like, how does she do it all? You know, like, because you’re also a parent.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:31:02]:

You know what I mean?

 

Kate Henry [00:31:03]:

Like, you also, like, have a partner, Right? So it’s like, this is definitely not like a. Like, how does she do it all? Let’s optimize. But, like, I’m just Curious. Like, how do these things fit into your life? Do you find that, like, these hobbies or projects outside of work kind of like cycle in or out or like, how do you sustain the things across years? Like, it’s kind of an open question. You can. You can take it where you feel.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:31:27]:

I’m kind of an extreme person by nature. Like, when left to my own devices, it’s a little scary, you know, like, it’s not in a good way. You know, like, it’s extreme, extreme, extreme. Too extreme to be normal, probably. And all encompassing. You know, my attention obsession is like. It’s a lot. It’s really intense.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:31:50]:

You know, for example, when I started running in my 20s, instead of like signing up for a 5K, I signed up for a marathon and then like, had to qualify for the Boston Marathon at that marathon, you know, like, it just wasn’t. It wasn’t like normal. It was like, okay, you can’t do anything a little bit. You kind of, like, take it too far all the time. And that’s just my nature. So I kind of know that about myself that I kind of have to, like, pull it back, you know, Like, I’m always going to jump to the most extreme version of what I can do, and that’s not always necessary. Sometimes it’s great, but it’s not always necessary. Kind of have to, like, invest, investigate whether that’s the only way I can get what I want.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:32:28]:

And so I think that’s like a. That’s a big question that I ask myself when I’m doing a project or I’m thinking of taking on a project or a hobby or something. Is like, well, what is the. Like, why am I motivated by this thing right now? Is it that I want to, like, have a beautiful painting on my wall once? I guess I could, like, try to paint that, but also, like, I could just buy one, you know, Like, I don’t need to, like, go make that my life for the next six months and like, learn how to oil paint in, like, the south of France. Although that sounds really cool, but, like, there’s an easier way to get a painting on my wall. So ultimately, I need to be like. I need to sort of like, trace back my motivation and be really clear with myself on it. The other thing that I think that I’ve learned is that it’s so helpful for me to see projects on a pro.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:33:11]:

Just a. I’m a visual person, so to see them on a project board and know that, like, my projects can coexist, and they can Go kind of like in dark mode or maybe like, they can be on hiatus, and I can come back to them. I think, you know, like in my 20s, I really felt like I have to be done with an era, you know, like when I was done running, I was like, I ran an ultramarathon and I was like, that’s the last time I’m ever gonna like, run again. I’m done, like, and that’s kind of insane to dedicate like four years, like a lot of your life to training for something and be like, and I’m out. And I don’t really, like, want to live that type of life or be that type of person. Where I leave the things that have shaped me behind forever. Who knows if I’ll make it back to running. Probably not with my knees, but, you know, we’ll see what happens.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:33:56]:

So that was something I just didn’t really like about myself. And I think now when I can see my projects, I use a project board on notion. I can kind of see like what’s cooking, what’s active, what have I kind of like left on the back burner for a little bit? Maybe because I didn’t have enough information to like really let it brew, or I was distracted or I needed to get honestly, like more skilled in order to do it the way that I wanted to do it. It just like eases my anxiety a little bit, so it helps me just enjoy and maybe right side those projects appropriately, like have expectations that are appropriate and in line with the project. So it’s actually like very joyful as opposed to feeling like burdensome. So that’s, that’s kind of like how I think about it right now. So there are a ton of things, like cheese making, for example, where I’m like, that’s on ice. I’ve tried and I am not ready to waste that much milk again.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:34:47]:

You know, like, I need a little bit of. I need a little more space before I’m ready to tackle that project again. Or even like motivation or maybe even a deadline. But yeah, that’s kind of, that’s kind of how I think about projects now. And a lot of my like, sort of skill-based projects, like things like pottery and sewing and yeah, all the other things they really are motivated by. Like, I want this dress, but I don’t want to pay like a thousand dollars for this dress, so. So I’m just gonna learn how to make myself. Or I really want ceramics because I.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:35:20]:

I host a lot. I really wanted a table full of ceramics that I had Made where I had every sort of, like, serving dish that I needed, as opposed to paying 400 for a large, beautiful platter. And it sounded fun to make it myself as opposed to, like, save up and, you know, shop for it. So, yeah, those are kind of like. It’s almost within some of my hobbies. I have micro projects of, like, I’m working on this thing. I think this would be cool to have, but. Did I answer your question?

 

Kate Henry [00:35:47]:

Yeah, you did. Oh, it’s so fun hearing you talk about that. Like, I. This. That also brings to my mind, like, how do you feel? Is it like Ira? I think it’s Ira glass. Like, the, like, idea of, like, taste versus skill. Because for me, I find that, like, maybe this is just, like. I don’t know.

 

Kate Henry [00:36:04]:

I was like, I’m gonna be a professor. I decided that when I was 12, and my whole life was like, I’m gonna be a professor. And then I was like, academia sucks.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:36:10]:

I don’t, like. Wait a second. I don’t like this. Yeah, yeah.

 

Kate Henry [00:36:13]:

But, like, now I still. Now I work with academics, right? So I’m still in the realm of, like, academic writing. But I find that I am, like. Like, I’m like. I have a few things that I’m, like, really good at, like, writing, you know, or, like, teaching and. But I struggle with. I have, in the past, struggled with the, like, taste versus skill challenge. Like, I remember I, like, bought a violin when I was in my early 30s and was like, I’m going to learn how to play violin and, you know, like, on a zoom lesson.

 

Kate Henry [00:36:41]:

And I took it, and I was like, absolutely not. I’m never gonna be, like, I am not interested in making this my thing to be good enough. So I, like, gave it away or, like, like, other. Like, pottery. Like, I. I love to collect pottery. Like, beautiful artisan mugs. And I know that I’m like, I’m not actually going to put in the effort to make something that is as beautiful as these things I want as a collector.

 

Kate Henry [00:37:04]:

So I find that my every year, my hobbies are the same thing. It’s practice yoga and, like, get better at cooking. Like, make. Make pickles. But even making pickles, like, I’ll only make, like, pickled asparagus and green beans. But I’m not gonna pickle cucumbers. Cause, like, the ones from the store are better, which is fine. I feel great about it all.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:37:23]:

You know, that sounds like you have the appropriate set of expectations for yourself. And, like, that’s what sounds fun to you.

 

Kate Henry [00:37:30]:

Yeah, it’s hard for me to be like, my spouse, Chris, and I call it, like, it’s like, try something new, like, to stretch your limits. It’s good for your brain. Quote, unquote, good for your brain. I don’t know. I’m not a psychologist, but, like, to do something outside your comfort level. But for me, I do often think about, like, what is the. And I think this. Like, I’m.

 

Kate Henry [00:37:46]:

I’m finally right now working on, like, a book project for my. My research. But, like, even that is something where it’s like, taste versus skill. I sometimes run into, like, when they can’t automatically align. So, like, what are your thoughts? Do you experience that as well? Like, tell me about it.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:38:03]:

Horrible. I’m a horrible sewist. I’m awful at knitting. I am not good at ceramics. Like, I’ve been. I’m like, I should be better. I’ve been doing this for a year and a half, and I’m still. I can pull a cylinder, you know, but I can’t, like, consistently pull a gorgeous vase.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:38:17]:

Every single time I go, I go in, right? And, like, I guess that’s also. I feel like some of the medicine in, like, exposure therapy for someone who maybe has identified as a perfectionist or again, like, extreme needs to be the best is super competitive. Like, like, it’s good to be bad at stuff. You know, It’s. It’s good for me to be bad at stuff because it also helps me see. Oh, I don’t care. Like, you don’t care to get good at violin? Great. Cool.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:38:41]:

I can be bad at that thing, you know, it’s not like, no skin off my back. And. And to your point, like, learning. I think, like, really what I like is learning and Feldenkrais, the method, the somatic method, you know, really what it’s about is helping you remember how to learn the way that your brain, as, like, a child or an infant knows how to learn. Because we can learn rapidly, right? Like, we learn how to talk and walk. That’s insane. That’s crazy. When you’re like an infant, right? And then we’re.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:39:12]:

We’re taught to learn differently. We’re taught to, like, master. We’re taught to memorize. So we eventually forget how to learn, and then we don’t pick up new things. So. Or when we do, we try to, like, learn them in the way that we’ve been taught them in school. And that’s not really how the brain learns. So then we get frustrated, and then we don’t learn new things.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:39:28]:

And there’s this concept in dementia research called use it or lose it. They studied people who started to lose their hearing, and those who got hearing implant or a hearing aid were far less likely to develop dementia later in their life. And they believe it’s because you stop using that part of your brain that requires listening and listening to, like, let’s say, a conversation and participating in conversations. And so it starts to sort of, like, you know, depreciate. It begins to fatigue, and that scares the shit out of me. So I’m like, I got. I want to use my whole brain, like, all the parts of my brain, and even if it means that, like, I’m going to be bad at stuff, and I don’t know, I think the practice is actually the fun part for in my experience, you know, it’s practicing something and getting better at it and, like, finding. Finding my edge in it and finding what I like about it or being able to be like, go with God.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:40:25]:

I don’t need that project in my life. Like, I don’t need to get good at that. I’m not interested in. I’m not interested in hiking. Okay. I’m not interested in mountaineering. I don’t need to get good at, like, climbing up a mountain. I’m not a goat.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:40:34]:

I’m good. Like, I’m good at sitting. I’m gonna do that. You know, that is. That’s satisfying again. And, like, I also think there’s something about what I call, like, desire hoarding, which is having all these ideas of, like, oh, it’d be so cool if I could do this. It’d be so cool if I could do that. I’d love to learn that.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:40:51]:

I’d love to learn that. And, like, ultimately never acting on any of them. And that’s sad because you’re just living in, like, the potential of what you could maybe do, as opposed to just trying it and actually being able to eliminate something. Like, you don’t want to be a professor. You would never know that unless you tried, right? I didn’t want to be a dancer. I realized after spending my whole life studying to be a dancer, I was like, this also kind of sucks. I don’t really want to do this. And I think part of it also has to be, like, I’m not an amazing chef, but, like, there are some foods that I really like and I really like to make for other people.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:41:25]:

And I’m really good at making those because I’ve, like, practiced making them. That’s what I care about making do. I Need to be, like a gourmet chef that’s using a mini blowtorch and like, I don’t know, like, whatever, dry ice, in order to, like, plate my designs. Like, no, I don’t really care that much, but, like, I can rock a grill pretty well and I’m. And like, you know, I’m kind of badass when it comes to a cheese board. Like, I can do that stuff well, and that’s what I enjoy and that’s what I like eating. So I don’t necessarily feel like I need to be a Michelin star level chef in order to have that hobby. Kind of the same thing with ceramics.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:41:59]:

I feel like maybe your taste and your actual skill set maybe come to some sort of, like, median point. You know, they meet in the middle eventually where you’re like, okay, well, this is what I. If you stick with something, this is what I can do. And how can I make this work for me? Maybe I’m not gonna be, like, making perfectly round, perfect plates, but maybe I can make, like, a really cool abstract sculpture that goes in my bookshelf. Cause I kind of need that and I kind of think that’s cool. And now I have a different appreciation for it, and I like it. So the other thing is, like, you just. I don’t know, we’re.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:42:34]:

I think we’re old enough where you just know you have to practice. You have to practice. You know, like, you’ve been practicing writing your whole life. Same. I’ve been practicing thinking my whole life, and I’m still not that good at it. So there are just things that you need to practice and. And also perhaps, like, practice in bulk or, like, with most of your attention. And maybe that eliminates some hobbies too.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:42:59]:

Or, like, helps me ease up on maybe being, like, judgmental of myself. Like, oh, how come I’m not better at that? I’m like, well, be real palazzan. You’re spending two hours a week, like, learning the piano. Of course you’re not playing Chopin, like, alongside, like, all of their other stuff. Like, it’s. It’s okay. If that was my goal, then I’d, like, probably need to reassess my relationship to that project. And that’s maybe like, another value of having something like a project board, because you can kind of see everything that’s on your burners and be like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

 

Kate Henry [00:43:29]:

This makes me think of the. My favorite tarot card, which I think is the seven of cups. Like, the cups that are like, you could choose this. You could choose this, you could choose that. And there’s some decks that I forget which one it is exactly, but it’s like some decks show all of them upside down except for the one that’s upright. It’s like, you can’t do all the cups at once, man. You gotta choose which one do you want to work on.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:43:52]:

Yeah. You can do anything, but you can’t do everything. I think, as they say in essentialism, yeah, you can end some things. You can do anything. But it might take you a really long time. You could be a rock star. You could decide at this age, you know, in your mid-30s, and I’m in my mid-30s, that you want to be a rock star. Great.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:44:09]:

It just is maybe going to take, like, a different path, take you a different path than you had expected. And it might not be as fast as you want it, but you could still make that happen in some way.

 

Kate Henry [00:44:18]:

I want to just do the same things over and over and, like, potter around and, like, just, like, live in the woods and make stews. Like, that’s fine. I don’t need to. I’m like, fine at being like, okay, you know, like, as long as my business makes enough money and I can help people, like, and I can do yoga. I’m sad.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:44:34]:

Yeah. I have no desire to be Taylor Swift on the ERAS tour. You know, like, that sounds. Not for me, but for me, and that’s great, you know, that’s excellent.

 

Kate Henry [00:44:44]:

All right. You mentioned Feldenkreis earlier, which I have to say, the first time you mentioned it on the 12th house, I was like, literally, like, hold on, pause. Google. What is this? Are there people near me who do this? Which there are, you know, so, like. But when I’ve heard you talk about it both on the pod or, like, you know, you’re talking about it now, it sounds really, like, delicious. It sounds, like, quite intentional. So, like, could you, like, for. I think many people who are listening haven’t heard of it as either.

 

Kate Henry [00:45:11]:

So could you tell us, like, what drew you to it? What is it? What are, like, what’s it like learning how to do it? Because I know it quite a long time and, like, involves, like, a lot of practice.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:45:20]:

Yeah. Yeah. So Feldenkrais is a type of somatic practice. I would say it’s like the next generation of Alexander technique. Like, they’re definitely akin to each other or like, somatic experiencing would be under the same umbrella. And I was a dancer, so I grew up doing dance, and I got into yoga really young and meditating really young, which Was amazing. Probably like 11, because that was just part of like my dance training, which was amazing. And I also got into Pilates and Feldenkrais and Alexander Technique too, because I had all these injuries.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:45:55]:

And then when I went to school, I went to nyu, we did a lot of Somatics and took a lot of classes in Somatics. And that was really where I started practicing Feldenkrais and Alexander Technique a lot. And as part of my like dance experiencing and the. The way that it works into maybe like the dance world or someone who’s into some. The Somatics or body body stuff. Is that it? The name of Feldenkrais, or what we call a Feldenkrais class, is awareness through movement. So you’re bringing awareness to your self concept, your idea of yourself, and how you’re relating to the choices that you make in the body in a different way than you’re used to in a non-habitual way. Because we all move habitually, right? We breathe habitually, we operate for the most part habitually, which is good because then we’d be using a lot of brain space to like, do normal stuff like walk down the street, which you don’t necessarily need to, like, really think about every single step that you take.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:46:50]:

And that can be good, but that can also be bad because you can develop habits or ways of operating that are like, perhaps not the most optimal for your body, that don’t feel great, that cause injury or deficiencies. And the same kind of goes for your brain, you know, when you don’t investigate from a different perspective the way that you think, you get stuck in ways of thinking. And so Feldenkrais and Alexander technique, what they do in sort of like a dance curriculum is help you investigate from a different perspective how your body can move in space, how your body feels, maybe, like help you use your body differently so you don’t get injured and visualize your body like an athlete would. Because dancers are athletes for sure. But like, more globally, people use Feldenkrais to basically, like retrain their brains to walk and operate more consciously in the world where they’re not operating from a habitual perspective all the time, where they have conscious choice in how they’re responding to the world around them. Whether that’s like how you’re responding to someone who snaps at you in an argument, or how you’re responding to like the chair that you’re sitting on, or how your body feels in your pants today, or how you’re sitting as you’re reading, or when you get an email, that feel makes you feel uptight. So, yeah, I just really love the technique. And my husband has brain cancer and he got diagnosed eight years ago, had chemo, radiation, brain surgery.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:48:22]:

And during his brain surgery to resect the tumor, they had to run an electrical current through his brain. So they wanna make sure that everything moves. His tumor is on his motor strip, which controls your movement function. And they fried some of the nerves in his brain. So he has a limp on one side, and he has less function in one side of his body. And what Feldenkrais can do is create new neural networks and new neural pathways. So it’s like, incredibly effective for people who have physical injuries and physical discrepancies. Like, there are many people who have cerebral palsy or Ms.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:48:59]:

Who do Feldenkrais and are able to, you know, move away from like using a walker or a crutch or wheelchairs because they’re retraining their brain to work in a different way or even like, slow. Slow down the progression of their disease. So I was just motivated to like, kind of try and help him use his brain in a different way too. I felt like it would be really helpful. And in true, like, Michelle Pellizzon fashion, I wasn’t like, oh, I should just find a teacher that I really like because they’re kind of hard to find. I was like, I should just train to become a teacher and then I’ll know everything and I. And then I can just like teach you then. But it also sounded really fun and, you know, something like that because I have a long sort of like history and experience with it.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:49:39]:

I kind of knew what I was getting into. And it’s something that I really am interested in. This concept of like embodied cognition sort of like floats throughout all of the work that I’m interested in. So felt like a good sort of like rabbit hole, research hole to continue to dig into. So I’ll be. Been in training for two years. I have two more years of training to do. It’s like, pretty intense.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:50:00]:

And then who knows what will happen. Maybe I’ll practice and maybe I won’t. But it’s. I recommend it to everyone. Like, it’s really hard to explain what the value is, I guess because that’s what most people are looking for of like, but what do I get in 30 minutes? And it’s not. It’s kind of not about that. And maybe that’s part of the value is not like one input, and you get this output. And that’s hard to explain in 20, 25 to people I love.

 

Kate Henry [00:50:26]:

I loved both when I was, like, learning about Feldenkrais from just researching it and hearing you talk about feels like an intentional slowing down, like a pressing pause, turning down the volume on other things. And I imagine I’m probably speaking out of school here, but I imagine it’s also just embodying in a way that could feel empowering or healing. I could see social workers studying building crisis. Well, yeah.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:50:56]:

One of the things that I like so much about Feldenkrais is that it’s kind of this more modern approach to the body than, like, Alexander technique, which is very, you know, like 1900s, you know, like, you know, because Alexander, both, Dr. Alexander believed that, like, there’s a right way to be in the body. So if you go to an Alexander, you’ll feel incredible after you do it, but there’s like, a right way to do it. And I remember, I like, you know, I aided an Alexander class for a couple of years in New York, and so I’d get to take class, like, twice a week, which was amazing, for free. But my teacher would be like, wrong, do it again. Wrong, do it again. And all you’re doing is, like, circling your shoulder, right? And she’s like, nope, that’s wrong. Try again.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:51:35]:

Start over. And that’s what we do for like, an hour and a half. And because there’s a right way to do it in Alexander technique, in Feldenkrais, there’s an optimal way that the body moves, that a perfect body moves. Right? An uninhimbered. Oh, my God. An un. Unhindered. There we go.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:51:52]:

Maybe a body that doesn’t have any injuries or any history that’s, like, literally perfect. Of course there’s an optimal way for it to move. But no person has a perfect body, you know, like, quote, unquote, perfect body. We have history, and our body is an archive. And the way that we try to. To teach in Feldenkrais is to give people the optimal space to learn. And part of that includes letting them decide what is best for them and also not approaching them as a problem. So, like, if.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:52:28]:

Even if you come to me with an injury, I’m not looking at you to diagnose what’s wrong with you and why you got that injury. What I’m trying to do is work with you to see, well, what’s working really well, what’s working well in your body right now. Is there a way we can do more of that? Maybe that will help with your injury. Maybe not. Of course it always does. It always does. When we treat the whole, we treat a part. But, like, what would it be like if your body wasn’t wrong? You know, how would you walk through the world if your body wasn’t something to fix? If you weren’t something to fix? If what you were doing was honestly, like, just being curious about how you are showing up today without judgment, without trying to perform correctness or perfection or whatever.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:53:13]:

Just like being present to the thing. So it’s a lot of small movement. It’s a lot of moving slow. It’s a lot of like, let’s try it this way. Okay. As a teacher, I’m never going to tell you, like, you’re doing it wrong. I’ll say, okay, let’s try it this way.

 

Kate Henry [00:53:27]:

All right.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:53:27]:

What if you tried it this way? What might happen? And there is an ultimate. That’s why it’s so nuanced to try and learn how to teach. Because ultimately, we are trying to sort of. There’s like a theme, right. With every lesson that I’m trying to get you to. To notice. But I don’t want to lead the witness too much. And it’s your job to, like, make those distinctions and to be locked in.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:53:48]:

It’s not necessarily like a class that you’re going to tune out and just, I don’t know, like sometimes in meditation or something or even like in a spin class where you can just be like, brain off body, just go. That’s not really what Felden crisis like. So it’s hard, I think, to like, convince people to do it. There’s a lot of, like, buy in that you need to get from the people who take class. But it’s. Yeah, I think it’s like an amazing technique and I recommend everyone try it.

 

Kate Henry [00:54:14]:

Thank you. It does sound. It sounds dreamy. It sounds just like. My body feels soothed just hearing you talk about it.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:54:20]:

Yeah. And there’s so many free resources online. I really like the Feldenkrais Project if you want to take a class. And cool thing about Feldenkrais is you don’t need to watch it. You can just listen to it. Because the teacher never performs the movement because we don’t want to tell you how to do it. So the Feldenkrais Project is a great place to start if you’re curious. And I really like pelvic clock as one of the first places, the first lessons to start with.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:54:42]:

But you could really start anywhere.

 

Kate Henry [00:54:43]:

Okay. I’m going to check out those free resources and link to them so Everyone can do that. I feel like we’ve done like a really nice like full circle today and it’s, yeah, just been such a treat to chat with you. But I’ll start closing us up for the day and ask you the question that I always love to ask people, which is what is something that you’re honing in on in your life?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:55:05]:

I’m kind of like really focused on this idea of ruthless clarity. Like I, I taught a whole class on it and I’ve just been thinking, I can’t stop thinking about it and sort of like looking through the lens of having ruthless clarity, like everything in my life and yeah, some of like the problems that I see sort of like in my community or whatever. And yeah, so that’s kind of what I’m, I’m thinking about, like, what is it to have ruthless clarity? And I think it ultimately is like knowing who you are and what you want and having discernment of like, okay, how can I make this work for me? And that kind of like an addendum to that or maybe a departure point is this concept of like a high agency person. Have you heard that term?

 

Kate Henry [00:55:53]:

I haven’t, but I’m like, yeah, cool, that sounds great. But maybe it’s not. I don’t know. Tell me.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:55:57]:

Yeah, yeah, it’s kind of like I’m still like rolling it around on my tongue because it’s been a little bit co-opted by like the optimization bros and like the tech bros of the world, which, you know, they like mess everything up that they touch. They could turn golden to shit. But the basic idea is like someone who, instead of waiting for someone else to save them or give them the answer, works towards trying to figure it out themselves. And I’m kind of two minds about it. There’s like a comic that illustrates it, right? It’s like a person on an island who’s written help in like driftwood. And that’s the low, low agency person. And the high agency person built a raft out of the, you know, out of the, the help wood instead to get themselves off the island. And I’m kind of two minds about it and trying to figure out if I like that term or not or if I want to be a high agency person or not.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:56:47]:

Because I think that you can like be high agency but also not discerning. You can be someone who’s like impatient and is like, well, I’ll just figure it out myself or I’ll just do it myself. And that’s not always the right way. To go about things, you know, like. But at the same time, maybe to be a high agency is to know who to ask for help or where to look, who to hire to support you or whatever it might be. So a lot of the time now I have a two, almost three-year-old, I think about the world of like, in the terms of like, would I tell Rhodes this is a thing that’s good? Or like, I don’t know, take that with a grain of salt. And I’m trying to decide if I want to tell him to try and be a high agency person or not. And I think, like, probably, no probably at this point, what I’ll tell him is like, there are moments in your life where you’ll be high agency, where you can be high agency and you can ask yourself, like, can I do something about this? Can I, like, make this better for myself? Do I need to wait for someone to help me or can I do it? Like, what can I do in this moment? And also there’s moments in your life where you’re not going to be high agency and that’s okay.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:57:47]:

And that’s where, like, you can maybe lean on other people to help you. And that’s kind of where I’m at with it right now, but I’m still workshopping it. What are you thinking about right now?

 

Kate Henry [00:57:55]:

Hearing you talk about that makes me think about how much libra I have in my chart and how I am like, happily a beta. I am very good. I would be an amazing personal assistant for a celebrity. I am very good at being. Here’s the thing. Go do it right. And I’m like, also, I’m also like, I research productivity, so I’m incredibly good at project management. Like, I can do that, but I also really, like, I think I’m high agency in that I’m high, like, efficiency and high effectiveness in following through.

 

Kate Henry [00:58:31]:

But, like, decision making is incredibly hard for me. Like, I do outsource a lot of things and delegate things to other folks who can help make decisions. And like, I do work with a lot of coaches, folks who can like, help me come to a thing where I’m like, this is good. Right? But that’s the thing.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:58:47]:

Yeah, I don’t know if that’s not high agency. You know, like, I’m kind of. And I think like, the, the dude bros are like, high agency. People just do stuff. They don’t wait for permission. I’m like, well, that’s also like, not good. You know, like, that’s. We don’t need more people like, that necessarily, you know, Like, I don’t think that’s exactly the nuanced.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:59:04]:

Maybe it is. I don’t know. But that’s. Maybe not. Like, that doesn’t seem valuable to me. But there’s something about that, like, high agency of like, well, I can figure this out. Like, I can figure something out here that I really like. But maybe it’s not the term high agency.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [00:59:18]:

Maybe it’s something else, you know, but it seems like that’s you too, because you’re like, I can figure out who to ask for help or, like, I’m gonna figure this out. I just. I’m. It might come totally from me, or it might come from. Yeah, I know where to look for the support that I need.

 

Kate Henry [00:59:32]:

I think that’s true. And I think also, like, one of my, like, personal values is I love being paying people for their labor. So, like, I do. Like, I love, like, hiring someone to be like, hey, like, you have this skill, like, can you help me figure this out? Like, that also brings me real satisfaction and I just respond incredibly well to accountability. So, like, like, any sort of, like, external accountability or motivation there is helpful. But, no, I feel very confident. Like, if there’s a problem, I will find a way to get it solved. But that doesn’t mean that I am like, okay, now I’m going to, like, white knuckle it on my own.

 

Kate Henry [01:00:05]:

Like, that feels like, like, personally for me. I’m like, no, I’m glad that I can go to people. Like, that is my go-to.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [01:00:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. And like, there are some things I don’t know. I feel like a more like, juvenile version of myself was like, you just have to muscle through, you know, like, you do have to white knuckle. Like, you got to earn your stripes or whatever. And now I’m like, I don’t know. I have only so much attention and energy in a day. Is this really worth stressing out or muscling through? Is the juice worth the squeeze? Because sometimes the muscularity of wrestling with something and rolling around with it is worth it.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [01:00:41]:

It leads to. With writing, right? You just kind of have to be in the mud for a little bit as opposed to outsourcing to AI, which kind of defeats the purpose of writing, in my opinion, because writing is thinking. So why would I outsource my thinking into something that’s dumber than me, but again, requires nuance? It’s not a one size fits all answer.

 

Kate Henry [01:01:03]:

Yeah, totally. Oh, this makes me, like, think of one of my best friends. Sarah is an Aries, and, like, we always joke about how, like, like, I. My job is coaching. And she’s like, I would never hire a coach. Like, I’ll just figure out how to do it and do it myself. And I’m like, I would never figure out how to do it myself. I would always hire a coach.

 

Kate Henry [01:01:19]:

You know what I mean? Like, I’m like, yeah, so it’s. It’s just, like, different ways to get to the same place. I’d rather use my time for, like, I don’t know, playing with my dog than, like, teaching myself something.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [01:01:30]:

Yeah, especially something that you don’t care to be good at. Like, I don’t really care about being good at, like, Facebook ads. So I don’t need to spend, like, my gorgeous life doing that, you know?

 

Kate Henry [01:01:40]:

Oh, my gosh. I hear you. Well, this has been a real treat, and I know that we could gab more about the. Everything that we’ve been gabbing about. And we. We will chat more about it in the future, I’m sure. But to close this out today, where can folks find you online? I’ll link to everything in the show notes. And do you have anything coming up later this year you want to tell us about?

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [01:02:00]:

Yeah, you can find me at holisticism. Holisticism.com or holisticism on Instagram. Or just follow me. Michelle Palazon on Instagram. Michelle Palazon Lipsets. That’s my married name. And you can also follow along on Substack. We have the 12th House podcast and newsletter, and I’m basically a bunch of substacks in a trench coat.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [01:02:17]:

And I have a bunch of different little projects on there that you can go check out. My show, Cosmic Valley Girl, with my friend and astrologer extraordinaire Emily Rousseau, is coming back in September, so keep your eyes peeled on that. We’re doing a really fun series, and, yeah, we’re always doing new stuff at Holisticism. So drop in, join us. We’re about to teach a Channeling a Manifesto class in the next couple of weeks. It’ll probably be up by the time this episode goes live, but yeah, just get on the email list and you’ll see everything that we’re up to. Thanks for having me. This was so fun.

 

Kate Henry [01:02:46]:

Oh, my gosh, my pleasure. This was so fun. And I’m also looking forward to the Channeling a Manifesto class.

 

Michelle Pellizzon Lipsitz [01:02:51]:

I know. I’m excited about it too. It’s one of my favorite, favorite things to teach. I have to, like, get the sales page up and start talking about it. Because it’s like deadline’s coming up soon, but it’s gonna be fun.

 

Kate Henry [01:03:01]:

Thanks so much for joining me. You can learn more about honing in and my work as a productivity coach on my website, KateHenry.com Take Good Care.